To Clint "Pops" McLaughlin: Whats your take on pedal tones?

[Mr.Hollywood]

Do they help, or hurt?

Just curious about your opinion on the subject.

I thought I read once where you said they where destructive. I for one believe this to be true.

I hope I spelled your last name correctly.

Thanks,

Chris



[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2004-03-26 16:00 ]

[Pops]

Sorry for the delay I don't get time to look here every day.


I realize that there are some teachers and books that advocate the use of pedal tones to help extend your range.

I am not one of them for several reasons.

Many people who play pedal tones allow their lips to roll out or protrude into the cup of the mouthpiece. Some even take one lip out of the cup entirely. These are contrary to the action needed to play high or even in the normal register of the trumpet.

Lots of methods do arpeggios starting in the pedals going up. Many people set the chops loose and flabby to make the pedals easy and then take a big breath (To change their embouchure) when they get into the normal range of the horn. This perfects HAVING to use an embouchure shift. Yeah you can get away with it in school but in the real world you can't miss notes while you shift and you can't ask people to cover for you in your embouchure break point.


Pedals will not build muscle needed to play high. Even when played properly pedals are played with much less tension than high notes. Only playing high will build the muscles needed to play high.


How many pieces of music require the use of pedal tones? If you never need to play them then why the extra practice?


The amount of air pressure and air speed used to play pedals is different than that used to play high. Exact opposites.


If you play until you are tired you should rest. However many people will play pedals and then continue to work their chops. Some of them have injured themselves by doing this. The lips are still fatiqued and weakened however by playing pedals you have increased the bloodflow to the lips and removed some of the lactic acid. Lactic acid is produced by all muscles when worked and the build up signals your brain that the muscle is tired by making it sore. When you speed up the blood flow and remove the lactic acid then you fool your brain. You no longer feel all of the muscle damage until the next day. Most trumpet players have experienced this. To do this on purpose is inviting disaster.



The vibrations needed to play a double pedal C are huge and teach you how to make BIG embouchure adjustments. You can actually feel the difference between it and Pedal C. But you can NOT feel the difference between middle c and High C. And in the upper register the difference between the notes gets so small that the physical difference between OCTAVES is LESS than the difference between Double pedal C and the C# a half step away.

This is why many people CHOKE off the sound in the upper register they practice big movements when they needed to learn to perfect small movements.



I NEVER said there were NO benefits from pedals but for me there are faster and easier ways to learn to play high.


I realize that this will get some heated responses. But I was asked for MY opinion so I stated it ONCE.

_________________
Come see the books everyone talks about; "30 Minutes to Better Trumpet Playing", "How the Chops Work". Plus my other 8 books at http://www.bbtrumpet.com

Pops

It is the Smart application of hard work that gets you there.

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-03-29 17:19 ]

[LeeC]

This is an interesting topic. I don't do pedals anymore except possibly to "wake up" my chops after a long period of counting rests during a performance. This is just another way for me to warm the mouthpiece and avoid a choked entrance.

However I do see a correlation between neophite pedal tone practicioners and the onset of more high register. Maybe that's why so many high note systems advocate the pedals.

My thought is that once a person gets a decent high F or so the pedals become less relevent and may actually do some harm. At least that was my experience in younger days. During my teens and twenties my chops were almost always in an unbalanced, overtrained, and over stressed condition. Playing pedals seemed to temporarily alleviate this condition, but the real solution was to avoid the negative, overworked condition to begin with.

These days low register warm ups help me more than pedals.

[alwyswinn]

interesting to see this I thought everyone was all for pedal tones. I find myself guilty of doing just what pops mentioned to play those low notes. I can though after a month back on the horn sustain a high c (usually) though I don't know if the pedal tones I occasionally play have anything to do with it.

[Hero of the Day]

Pops,
You mention that you dont like pedals because they remove the lactic acid and thus trick your brain into thinking you are not as tired as you should be. That is interesting. May I ask...Do you advocate lip flapping as a warm up or cool down? I thought it did the same thing right? I usually flap my lips for at least 3-5 or sometimes more minutes evertime before I play...about 5 times a day. Thanks.

[EBjazz]

<interesting to see this I thought everyone was all for pedal tones. >
What? Trumpet players agreeing on anything? Forget it.
Although I don't advocate pedals as a means to a better upper register, I do have a demo on my site which not only fully demonstrates the correct way to practice pedals, but discusses why you should or shouldn't play them.
Basically, if someone tells you something is bad and you in your heart believe that to be true, that's probably reason enough for you to avoid pedal tones. If on the other hand, you feel that you can make up your mind all by yourself, then it would benefit you to learn how to play pedals correctly and decide for yourself.
Here's the direct link: http://www.bolvinmusic.com/mandt.html

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[Larry Smithee]

I don't "practice" pedal tones and I'm not interested in high range (seriously) but I have found at least one aspect that is useful about pedal tones. Years ago I discovered that subtle changes in my set up had resulted in my twisting the mouthpiece on the lips. One of the things that helped me to over come this condition was to do short periods of pedal tones (or I should say a pedal tone). I found that I couldn't get a big fat pedal tone if I twisted the mouthpiece on my lips. This kind of practice helped my (I think) overcome this problem and adjust my embouchure set up.
Larry

[Mr.Hollywood]

Hey Pops, Very good answer(s). Thank you for your response.

Have you ever noticed that the guys who do make out ok with pedals are the ones who use a very high mouthpiece placement? Case in point Arturo, and he seems to be having some chop trouble in recent years (just might be the pedals). They (high placement) are the few who can get the pedals without really shifting too much.

The fact is that if you are a Roy Stevens type player (very low placement) and attempt pedals you will destroy you embrouchure (as Brisbois did when he took a lesson with Maggio)

They where a lot more popular back in the 1970's. I remember a lot of guys (myself included) working through Claude Gordon's "Systematic Approach".


Chris

[my username]

while pedals may not work for everyone, their validity can't be completely discounted. just look at the people who have flourished using systems that incorporate pedals as a major part of the method. there have been times when the entire trumpet section of the LA phil was comprised of jimmy stamp students. tommy stevens, roy poper, and ronnie romm are a just a few other stamp disciples. claude gordon had great success as a teacher as well. the thing is, you must study with someone who knows the method and knows the correct way to do pedal tones; playing them incorrectly obviously won't help.

[kalijah]

The size of the vibration of the lips is not dependent only on pitch but also volume.

[Jerry Freedman]

The Claude Gordon method has produced excellent players. It uses pedal tones which must be produced properly(se EBJazz). Caruso produced excellent players. He taught pedal tones but you got 'em anyway you could. Stamp produced excellent players. Reinhardt produced excellent players and he was strongly against pedal tones. Pops is the best around and it looks like he is not against pedal tones as Reinhardt apparently was but thinks there are better ways. Like Faith vs Good Works this is a never ending dispute...Whats the answer?

[LeeC]

Roy Stevens was emphatic about "Not playing notes formed with the mouthpiece set partially off the embouchure". He was talking about pedals tones. But then again his system didn't work for everyone (as no system seems to work for all).

My thoughts are: If you don't see much range improvemnet soon after starting the pedal tone regimen or if it causes your chops a lot of confusion and you start playing inconsistently you should lay off them (pedals).

On the other hand when I first started doing pedals in 1971 my practice room range shot up to a solid sounding high G within weeks. Had never gotten much heat on even just a high C prior to the pedal tone studies. I was elated.

[David]

I believe the systems that utilize petals can be effective for those who have an incorrect embouchure they prevents them from playing well.

One of the major problems many have is they stretch their lips, thinning the area that is in the cup. What petals do is give you a feel for having your chops fat in the center with a lot of "meat" in the cup. Over time you gradually learn to transfer this feel to your playing embouchure, eliminating the stretch.

If you look carefully at Jeff Smiley's BE, that is exactly what his roll out and roll in exercises do.

At least that's my theory
_________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

[blaznov]

there is no ONE way to do anything that works for everybody. there are too many fantastic highnote players who do utilize pedal tones to say pedals don't work. there are too many fantastic highnote players who don't utilize pedal tones to say that pedals are the way. it's whatever works for you. everyone is an induvidual.

[oj]

Hi Pops, how are you?

Good answer to the question raised by Chris (even if I knew your postion from earlier).

Two famous teachers and players tell about how they, after a serious heart failure, was able to come back to playing by utilising one thing you like Pops, lip buzzing, and one thing you do not like, pedal tones.

Armando Ghitalla was one. He said (in Windplayer vol. 7, no. 4):
I began serious lip conditioning after a heart operation. I had zero endurance and minimal body strength. In two years, at age 58, I was able to play double high C's for the first time in my life as a result of these exercises.

What did he do?
He used the Stamp method, pedal tones, lip buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing. And, Pops, he also use the pencil exercise

The other one was Pierre Thibaud.

He tell about his heart trouble in his new books, Methode for the Advanced Trumpeter (Balquhidder Music)

It is 3 books, and in a thin book (one thick, two thin) called Daily Routine and Vocalises for Advanced Trumpeter, Thibaud says in the Introduction:

Major surgery forced me to rethink the way to play my instrument. Remembering the methods of Maggio, Stamp, Spaulding, etc., I had plenty of time in hospital to work quietly and could practice buzzing for hours. I found a way to play with ease in all registers (from low F# to double high C) thanks to the double pedal tones position.

When I say double pedal tone position I mean the lip thickness developed by this kind of practice. This thickness must be kept in all registers with the normal postion of the mouthpiece.

As you Pops, I don't use "normal" pedal tones. I use the so called "Callet pedals". A few weeks ago I had lessons with Jerry Callet and by watching and listening to him, I learned how to do them with much better effect. I now do them strong (loud) and with a very raspy sound.

As David pointed out here, about BE (that uses the Callet pedals): By doing them over some time, you transfere your embouchure into a more effective postion. This transformation can be called an "indirect method" - it takes time, especially for those who played with streched lips.

I know you don't like BE very much Pops, but if you look into the BE forum, you will see many testimonials about the effectiveness of these strange, simple, but effective exercises (called Roll-Out in "BE-speak").

Regards,

Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-04-01 02:38 ]