R.I. #1 Question

Vessehune · Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:45 am Post subject:

On R.I. #1 - Does this get more difficult as others go for the F natural or is it just me? The G and F# come out easily with little strain. The F natrual is more difficult and my "corners" really start to burn. I was just wondering if this is something others have experinced.

THanks!

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:

It is normally a little bit more difficult, as the RI pitch wants to go higher, and you are trying to drag it down. I am guessing that by the time you get to the F, you are just a little fatigued, hence the burn.

flugle-me-elmo · Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject:

Yeah, on a similar thought: When I do the roll-in I also experience corner burn. Is this a sign of not properly rolling in? I know the focus should be off the corners, but obviously they muct be used in some minimal capacity. Is that burn natural at first since I could be activating minute muscles not previously used in my playing? This is my guess...but I thought I'd see if there should be corner burn at all with B.E.

thanks guys...happy playing,

Chris

pmj · Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject:

Chris,

Thanks for raising this issue.
I have been on BE since mid-February and have also experienced some "burn" in and around the corner and jaw muscles when doing RO, RI and TOL (tonguing on lips) particularly. I am not an expert in BE but also felt it was "normal" as I was using muscles I have not engaged before. I am pretty certain I am setting up correctly as I check regularly in a mirror.
My previous set up was very open with a receded jaw. I still use this for regular playing, however recently have noticed some minor positive changes in sound and range are occassionally "creeping in" to my playing. I am hoping it is the result of BE.
I too would be interested in knowing from a more experienced BE user if they feel this burn is a problem or not.

Pat

Larrios · Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:58 pm Post subject:

Hi,

I think that the burning feeling described is a normal effect. Eventually, your goal is control over your corners, rather than not using them at all. They'll become flexible and move unconciously to where it supports your lips most efficiently. My guess is that the burning sensation is mostly associated with locking them in place. However, unlocked corners do involve muscle activity as well, that you probably never experienced before. Especially when you got into extreme lippositions, I think it's only normal to get this 'burn'. As with the lipclamp, it's just a sign you activated them and excersised them. Don't overdo and you'll be just fine.

Ko

HJ · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:09 am Post subject:

Hi,

The lip clamp burns, the roll-in burns after a while. I worried a little about this when I started BE. The corners should be unlocked and relaxed, hmmm, why do they burn, then? Because you use your muscles in a totally different way, that's why. I am not a physician, but I would not be surprised if it turns out that you are using totally different muscles. I don't know about this, but it would not surprise me. BTW. the same for roll-out, if you do them correctly it is possible that you feel it burn after a while. Sometimes people are surprised that while doing the double pedals they get tired. Shouldn't it be completely loose? No, you are working new muscles here. That is why it is so important to do double pedals with the right sound. The raspier you want them to sound the more forward and inward you have to move your lips. In all cases: don't overdo, take a brake if it burns and let the blood replenish the muscles.

Now the good thing: if you do the exercises (burn or not) your normal playing will get 'burn-free'. At least that is what happens to me. Two years ago I could play till my cheeks and corners started to ache, mpc pressure went up and it was over for the day or a couple of days. Now I don't feel it burn anymore. Or much less than before. Of course after a while you get tired, but I don't have to have long breaks, my endurance is much better and I can always play the next day, no matter what I did the day before that.

I think this is what happens: the muscles that start to burn on lip clamp and RO/RI are the muscles that are being activated to eventually support your playing/embouchure/mpc. Jeff says that the movements are exaggerated, so you don't need to strain the muscles as you do in the exercises. In BE you strengthen them and learn how to use them in an unconcious way, in your normal playing they just know what to do.

Bert

oj · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:28 am Post subject:

Bert,

One of the muscles we use as brass players has an interesting origin:

buccinator (latin) A muscle of the cheek; -- so called from its use in blowing wind instruments.

In the ancient Roman army, they had an instrument called buccina (3 were found in Pompei)

Ole

HJ · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:32 am Post subject:

Ole,

In Dutch it is even more obvious, the buccinator is called the 'trompet-spier', you don't have to be Dutch to understand this

. I am not quite sure, but I think this is the muscle that we do not want to interfere too much with our playing, I think it is the muscle that locks the corners.
What makes it difficult is not to look up the names, but to be sure which of the muscles it is that you actually use. It is kind of 'knotty' around the lips, so it is hard to determine what you use. That is why I am so happy with BE, I don't have to worry about that anymore. It just works.

Bert