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oldlipguitarplayer Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2022 Posts: 24
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:58 pm Post subject: Copper trumpet / cornet |
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I happened upon a trumpet, although it looks more like a cornet on reverb. The listing: "Conn Elkhart, IN Coprion Copper Trumpet with Case". I never heard of a copper trumpet. How do they sound? Any big difference? Anyone? Copper? Brass? Difference? Thanks |
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Copper trumpet / cornet |
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oldlipguitarplayer wrote: | ... How do they sound? Any big difference? Anyone? Copper? Brass? Difference? ... | I've been playing horns with copper bells (and lead pipes) for years. Copper is denser compared to brass. The effect is a mellower (more dense) sound, which is why copper bells are often preferred over brass on flugelhorns and cornets (especially flugelhorns). _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2170 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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My Schilke C trumpet has a lightweight copper bell.
My Schilke Bb has a yellow brass bell.
It's much easier for be to color my sound on the copper bell horn. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:07 am Post subject: Copper bell |
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It sounds like the ad you refer to is for a Conn Coprion model which Conn made a long model of that closely resembles a trumpet. Good horns and they seem to be a good value on the used market as well.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1020 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Years ago, I played a copper Callichio trumpet at The Horn Guys in LA. It was a lovely horn with a rich, warm sound! I recall it was slightly heavier than I expected.
My Kanstul 1525 flugelhorn has a copper bell. In addition to getting attention for its looks, I think it sounds great. One thing though: it dents very easily. Things you usually take for granted, like placing it in a case or setting it down on a stand, need to be done with more care. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 w/french, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS, GR 66CT-Z, & Touvron-D. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7014 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Riojazz wrote: | Years ago, I played a copper Callichio trumpet at The Horn Guys in LA. It was a lovely horn with a rich, warm sound! I recall it was slightly heavier than I expected.
My Kanstul 1525 flugelhorn has a copper bell. In addition to getting attention for its looks, I think it sounds great. One thing though: it dents very easily. Things you usually take for granted, like placing it in a case or setting it down on a stand, need to be done with more care. |
I also played that very Calicchio, Matt! It was lovely. Such a rare thing.
Your 1525 might be an early build. I understand they got less dent prone after a bit. My Wild Thing flugelhorn isn't much different compared to the brass version I owned, in terms of fragility. Oh, how do you like the way your 1525 plays with the French taper mouthpiece? much better than the stock Small Morse, IMO. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: |
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If it’s this one https://reverb.com/item/39553151-conn-elkhart-in-coprion-copper-trumpet-with-case , it’s a Conn 12A cornet with a Coprion bell. Coprion was Conn’s method of forming a seamless copper bell by plating copper over a mandrel to a thickness that would serve as a bell. Those are really nice-playing cornets with a beautiful sound. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Don't like the leadpipe. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:04 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Don't like the leadpipe. |
Yes, looks like it was badly bent or broken at some time and repaired with a sleeve. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1968 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:10 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Don't like the leadpipe. |
+1
It looks like that ferrule on the leadpipe right before the first valve is a repair. It likely needs a replacement leadpipe (I'm not sure how easy it would be to get one for a Conn 12A). _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1020 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:45 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: |
Your 1525 ... Oh, how do you like the way your 1525 plays with the French taper mouthpiece? much better than the stock Small Morse, IMO. | It is indeed better. My strobe tuner proved it is closer to the 'correct' pitch up and down with the French (non)taper. Doing that test is hard because you have to just let the note flow without unconscious correction.
Charles Hargett got me one when he was still at Kanstul. On his advice, I bought a spare because apparently the French taper lead pipe is thinner, but I've had no trouble with mine for many years now. Thanks again for your advice! And sorry for the hijack of the thread. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 w/french, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS, GR 66CT-Z, & Touvron-D. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2353 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Electro-formed copper (like the Coprion bell) has a smaller grain structure than rolled sheet copper, which means it's harder. I owned a trumpet with an electro-formed bell that was trimmed to final diameter without a bead, like a Conn Vocabell. I currently own a cornet with the same sort of bell. My personal observation is that both horns handle being put on a stand with no problems.
The trumpet was my all-round player for years and worked fine in every setting I found myself in, including big band lead. The cornet is dark and diffuse. I don't think you can predict how an instrument will sound based solely on the bell material. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding is that with copper bells in particular you gain richness and lose a little focus. I have a copper bell on my bass trumpet one on my C trumpet. I think they add flexibility to how the horns can be played. On the bass trumpet is gives me a lot of responsibility for hearing clearly and getting the notes in tune but also allows the flexibility to do so, a good be more than on a brass belled bass trumpet I played previously to the one I have now. Of course a lot of other factors may be coming into play, so I cannot ascribe everything to the copper bell.
Bells with high copper content such as red brass can accomplish some of the same thing. My flugelhorn has one of those and I love the sound. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of copper bells, this .485” bore Conn 9A Victor is a cannon. Beautiful tone, and can be played very loudly with no distortion. The cornet is heavy and solidly braced, and has a Coprion bell and leadpipe.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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oldlipguitarplayer Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2022 Posts: 24
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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"Don't like the leadpipe"
Can you be more specific? Are you responding to the
cornet I looked at on reverb?
https://reverb.com/item/54734599-1941-conn-coprion-cornet-model-12a
I looked at the photos, could not find any issue, but I'm not at all
experienced in this area. I'm trying to proceed carefully so I don't
end up with a junker.
Any help? thanks |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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oldlipguitarplayer wrote: | "Don't like the leadpipe"
Can you be more specific? Are you responding to the
cornet I looked at on reverb?
https://reverb.com/item/54734599-1941-conn-coprion-cornet-model-12a
I looked at the photos, could not find any issue, but I'm not at all
experienced in this area. I'm trying to proceed carefully so I don't
end up with a junker.
Any help? thanks |
That one looks fine. There’s another one currently on Reverb with a patch on the leadpipe. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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1957Tim Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 192 Location: Hannibal Missouri
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:41 pm Post subject: Dale's Conn 9A Victor Cornet |
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Dale’s Conn 9A Victor is one beautiful cornet, and indeed has a beautiful tone. Several years ago, I was privileged to meet Dale and play a few of his horns. This cornet out plays the Conn 12A hands down, for we play tested it against mine. Don’t get me wrong, the Conn 12A cornet is a nice playing/sounding horn, just not up to par with the 9A Victor. I still have the sound of that cornet stuck in my head Dale. If I remember correctly, this cornet had won the lion’s share of your cornet playing at that time. Is it still leading the pack, or has it lost a notch on the cornet ladder?
Enjoy the music of this Christmas Season,
-1957Tim |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dale's Conn 9A Victor Cornet |
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1957Tim wrote: | Dale’s Conn 9A Victor is one beautiful cornet, and indeed has a beautiful tone. Several years ago, I was privileged to meet Dale and play a few of his horns. This cornet out plays the Conn 12A hands down, for we play tested it against mine. Don’t get me wrong, the Conn 12A cornet is a nice playing/sounding horn, just not up to par with the 9A Victor. I still have the sound of that cornet stuck in my head Dale. If I remember correctly, this cornet had won the lion’s share of your cornet playing at that time. Is it still leading the pack, or has it lost a notch on the cornet ladder?
Enjoy the music of this Christmas Season,
-1957Tim |
Hi Tim! Man, I still remember your Conn 12A, too, an impressive cornet for sure. The parking garage was a great place to try out each other’s load of instruments…
I’m in the middle of rehearsals for some serious Christmas performances, and they require a trumpet, so the cornets have taken a back seat for the past couple months. My Conn 9A and Bach 184G are pretty much equal in my eyes, but different. Which one I choose really depends on the music I’m playing. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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1957Tim Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 192 Location: Hannibal Missouri
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:51 pm Post subject: Dale's Conn 9A Victor Cornet |
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I picked this Conn 12A up from Ken, an elderly gentleman whose father purchased it for him new in 1952. Due to his wife failing health, they were selling everything they didn’t absolutely need so they could move into a small place. He told me that he sent the cornet back to Conn in 2000 and told them he wanted it to look like it did when his father gave it to him new in 1952. They removed the dings and refinished the horn, so it looked like new when he sold it to me. The valves were worn to the point of it not being totally reliable when playing, so I sent it in to Anderson Plating Company, and they worked their magic on the valves. I don’t play the horn a lot, so the valves are barely broke in, however, it is a fun horn to play. Ken owned this horn for around 65 years, so I wrote down his story and told him this would always be Ken’s horn, and if I ever sold it his story would go with it.
I’ve been playing in a Salvation Army Brass Band for some time now, so it’s a rare thing for me to do anything with my trumpet. I do play flugelhorn on a weekly basis in another venue, but we know that playing situations can change overnight, so my trumpet stays close-by.
What year is your Conn 9A? It looks so nice, was it in this condition when you acquired it, or did you have it reconditioned? I’m sure you have a bit more time to devote to your music and motorcycle hobbies now. Enjoy each day my friend, and may your playing bring honor to our creator.
-1957Tim |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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The 9A was in almost-new condition when I bought it. I can’t tell if it’s been relacquered somewhere along the way, but if it has, it was a long time ago (the copper has turned darker) and by a real professional. Valves are in super condition, too. The serial # places it as a 1962 model. Thank you for the kind words, and props to you for playing with the SA band. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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