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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 153 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:17 pm Post subject: Maurice Murphy Equipment Changes? |
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Good morning, trumpet world.
I have always felt that on the earliest Star Wars Soundtrack recording (1977) Mr Maurice Murphy does not quite sound the way we came to know him from later recordings and concerts. (I heard him live in Shostakovich 5 in Vienna and a Goldsmith programme in London. Incredible!)
Would someone be able to remember or research whether Mr Murphy changed equipment after this recording? I would assume that he came into contact with Mr Wick (the amazing principal trombone on said recording) who might have suggested a different mouthpiece to him or that this was where the MM series was developed. (I have just written to the Denis Wick company and might hear from them soon. If I learn anything, I will post it here).
Some people also say Mr Murphy played on an “Olds Recording” trumpet and switched to Bach 25 afterwards. Or did the recording guy simply do a bad job on the trumpet sound on those sessions?
I would be very grateful for any first or second hand information on this. So far all I have is internet rumour without a quoted source. Thanks!
Clarification (25 Jan 2023): Obviously these recordings are amazing, fantastic, unsurpassable in any possible way and I would never swap them for anything else, no matter how "perfectly" or "cleanly" or "audiophilelely" they might be recorded nowadays!!!! That was never the point I tried to make!!!
Last edited by mr oakmount on Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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From a post on TH, which was authored by a former very controversial member, “Maurice Murphy Severinsen-Akright Bel Canto Denis Wick MM2C (Maurice Murphy signature model)”
No information on when he played the Bel Canto though. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1037 Location: Europe
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Maurice Murphy Equipment Changes? |
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mr oakmount wrote: | Or did the recording guy simply do a bad job on the trumpet sound on those sessions? |
From what I can gather about the budget constraints of the 1st Star Wars film, this isn't entirely implausible. I could certainly imagine George Lucas telling the sound guys to skip a few takes or skimping on the final edit.
Have you compared the 'Star Wars sound' to any of his other recordings that were made in the same period? _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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Gabrieli Regular Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 66 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Maurice played a Conn Constellation at the beginning of his time with the BBC Northern Orchestra (now called BBC Philharmonic) and at that time he used a Bach 3c mouthpiece. Whether he was still using the Conn when he moved to the LSO I do not know. He came to coach the youth orchestra I played in when he was with the BBC and I asked him why he chose to play the 3c mouthpiece.
His reply : " I bought the trumpet off someone who played with symphony orchestras and the mouthpiece was in the case so, coming from brass bands, I assumed that was the mouthpiece one had to use in a symphony orchestra"! Maurice was always a bit tongue-in-cheek with what he said but I think he really meant this. |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2485 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:30 am Post subject: |
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The playing on this is exemplary.
A lot of the sound is in the engineer's hands - I would sooner be looking there than Mr Murphy. Techniques & production expectations have greatly changed over the years becoming more like pop music at times - extremely over produced.
The SW OST is a masterpiece, imo, I prefer that with all the nuance and human imperfections. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 987
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Maurice Murphy's sound may have evolved after 1977, but there is nothing wrong with the trumpet sound, or any other aspect of the orchestra's sound, on that recording. Eric Tomlinson was a master recording engineer and that recording was spectacular.
There were budget restraints on the first Star Wars movie, but they didn't extend to compromises in technical fields. The London Symphony Orchestra was compensated as they usually were in a recording situation, and they played and were recorded as if they were recording one of their repertoire albums, which is to say at a very high level. However, recording the score in London as opposed to Hollywood at the time was considerably less expensive, and John Williams was asked to provide his services for quite a bit less than his normal fee. To compensate, he was given one percentage point of the net profits of the film (!). |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Maurice Murphy Equipment Changes? |
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mr oakmount wrote: | ...Or did the recording guy simply do a bad job on the trumpet sound on those sessions?... |
What part do you find that the trumpet sounds bad, or that the recording engineer did a bad job with the trumpet sound? I'd have to go back and listen, but every time I've watched the movie with my kids when they were younger, I have always been blown away. Do I need to listen on high-end equipment to hear the nuances to which you're referring? Not trying to challenge you...just trying to understand. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 153 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your responses! I love the idea of MM on a Connie
And I really do not mind being "challenged", we are all friends and colleagues here.
You are right, there is nothing "wrong" with any of the Star Wars Soundtrack recordings (except for "Jedi" where they messed up the Noise Reduction settings on the album, but even that sounds great on the film itself). For me they do not necessarily live up to what classical labels did in the 70s and 80s, but this is film. Different needs, different aesthetics. Hope (1977) was recorded at Anvil Studios, Empire and Jedi (mostly) at Abbey Road.
What I meant was that on "Empire" and "Jedi" I immediately recognise that unique Murphy "sound" that I know from lots of other film music and classical recordings and that I heard in concert twice. I do not hear that on "Hope" (absolutely fantastic though the LSO and his playing is).
To make my point, I made an edit where you hear the beginning of all three films (taken from the 2018 remastered Albums). Maybe it is just me ...
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARjm3eq_uWUEkI-QCi?e=VIYnZ1
(If the link does not work, please copy and paste the whole line).
For comparison: Murphy and the LSO on the digital recording for "Phantom Menace" from 2000. The Track is called "Hail to the winner, Anakin Skywalker"
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARjm57ZBNW3PmFul1C?e=luYiNS
(Again, please copy and paste the whole line).
Last edited by mr oakmount on Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 153 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Obviously these recordings are amazing, fantastic, unsurpassable in any possible way and I would never swap them for anything else, no matter how "perfectly" or "cleanly" or "audiophilelely" they might be recorded nowadays!!!! That was never the point I tried to make!!!
I was just curious if anyone knew about MM changing instrument and/or mouthpiece right after joining the LSO and if there was anything behind the "Olds Recording Trumpet" story that you often find online, but without a quoted source. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Gabrieli wrote: | Maurice played a Conn Constellation at the beginning of his time with the BBC Northern Orchestra (now called BBC Philharmonic) and at that time he used a Bach 3c mouthpiece. Whether he was still using the Conn when he moved to the LSO I do not know. He came to coach the youth orchestra I played in when he was with the BBC and I asked him why he chose to play the 3c mouthpiece.
His reply : " I bought the trumpet off someone who played with symphony orchestras and the mouthpiece was in the case so, coming from brass bands, I assumed that was the mouthpiece one had to use in a symphony orchestra"! Maurice was always a bit tongue-in-cheek with what he said but I think he really meant this. |
Thanks for sharing; very fascinating to know Maurice was playing the same horn Maynard was at that time.
As far as the OP's concern; i doubt Murphy switched horns after A New Hope. There isnt any evidence to show that. Most of the photos and videos of him using his Olds are after 1977. The earliest ive heard/seen he switched to Bach was 1983. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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thesplitmeister Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 819 Location: Manchester- England
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:35 am Post subject: |
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I remember noticing the change MMs sound over the recordings but I put that down to his evolution as a player over the years. His first notes for the LSO were the first notes of the Star Wars recording so it makes sense that he would change over the years. I’m not saying there wasn’t any equipment change but with a player like MM I would suggest that the equipment made less of an impact than the player themselves. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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You can't judge the nuances of someone's sound based on an ensemble recording.
Even under the best circumstances all recordings are a compromise. The acoustics of the hall, any EQ has an impact. There are surely multiple mics and the way the mics are placed and mixed makes a difference, the mics don't hear the way human ears hear and add their own coloration. It was tape back then and the way the signal of the mics is retained by the tape it's recorded to has an impact on the sound. You're not hearing the recording played back the way you'd hear it in a live setting even if you have a cost-no-object sound system in a purpose-designed, acoustically treated room which I'm guessing isn't how you're hearing it and even then the characteristics of the speakers no matter how much they or the gear that's driving them cost colors the sound. If you're listening to an LP that alters things as well - not only because of how playback on an LP works but also the sound engineering for LP is different than for CD.
What you're hearing is the sound after having gone through a long chain of technology - even with the best recording what you're hearing is an approximation of the original sound. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 153 Location: Europe
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:18 am Post subject: |
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And yet I can usually tell it's Murphy, no matter if it is a 1979 or 1999 recording, Deutsche Grammophon or EMI, anologue or digital. It's just the first 1977 Star Wars Recording where I can't tell it's him. That's why I asked about instrument or maby Mouthpiece change. I mean, that's probably where he met Denis Wick (the LSO trombone) for the first time.
I am re-posting the recording excerpts. Maybe someone can hear what I mean:
On "Empire" (1979) and "Jedi" (1983) I immediately recognise that unique Murphy "sound" that I know from lots of other film music and classical recordings and that I heard in concert twice. I do not hear that on "Hope" (absolutely fantastic though the LSO and his playing is).
To make my point, I made an edit where you hear the beginning of these three films (taken from the 2018 remastered Albums):
1977 New Hope - 1979 Empire - 1983 Jedi
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARjm3eq_uWUEkI-QCi?e=VIYnZ1
(If the link does not work, please copy and paste the whole line).
For comparison: Murphy and the LSO on the digital recording for "Phantom Menace" from 2000. The Track is called "Hail to the winner, Anakin Skywalker". Here I also recognise his timbre as I know it.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARjm57ZBNW3PmFul1C?e=luYiNS
(Again, please copy and paste the whole line). |
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LarsHusum Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Posts: 88 Location: Copenhagen
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Try and listen to the original mix. The special editions and probably later remastered editions as well, are a much worse mix in my opinion.
The original release has a very honest and lively sound.
Murphy sounds amazing. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1892
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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mr oakmont, you've got to take a lot into account when you base the changes of Murphy's sound on his equipment. First, the technological changes of the recordings. Moving from analog to digital. The different recording engineers used. The different venues where they made the recordings. The locations of the mikes. The conductors. These differences probably had more to do with the supposed changes in the sound that you perceive more than Murphy's equipment.
I am certainly no expert in MM. I heard him live in 1993 playing Mahler's 5th in a small theater in Italy. I have never heard anything like it again from a 1st trumpet perspective. Of course, he used a Bb trumpet. I noticed that every time Murphy took a breath, he raised his shoulders, something that teachers tell you not to do. I like to see the "rules" being broken by the top players. BTW, I have heard interviews of the LSO regarding Murphy. The musicians said that they didn't notice any drop in his ability from when he entered the LSO, until he left. That is pretty amazing in itself.
BTW, some of you Americans might not know that the Brits pronounce is first name as "Morris", not Maurice as in Maurice Andre. Brits, correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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mr oakmount wrote: | And yet I can usually tell it's Murphy, no matter if it is a 1979 or 1999 recording, Deutsche Grammophon or EMI, anologue or digital. |
I submit that you *think* you can because you already know who it is.
Given 20 recordings of Murphy and other players that you were completely unfamiliar with I'll bet you wouldn't be able to consistently pick him out. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:26 am Post subject: |
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I saw the LSO live in London in the spring of 1990 perform the Strauss An Alpine Symphony. We were near to the center "edge" of the mezzanine (closer to the stage). The conductor positioned the "off-stage" brass at the back of the mezzanine level, so it was a big surprise when they first began to play! The entire performance was beautiful and powerful.
Interestingly, at one point, I recall MM reaching forward to his music stand and switching mouthpieces. This was just after Rehearsal 70, when he finished the descending, two-octave, concert D minor, triplet arpeggio from high written E (Bb tpt transposition at that point in the part).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5488nn5baz81gm/Strauss-An%20Alpine%20Symphony-tpt%20excerpt.pdf?dl=0
He may have switched at other points in the piece that I did not notice, but I distinctly remember seeing this. What was the switch? I wondered, and why would this even be important to me?
I also noticed that there was a tiny glitch in one of the notes toward the end of the arpeggio (and I hate mentioning this, since it was the only "mistake" that I heard in the entire piece!). Did he switch because of the tiny glitch? Was the switch already planned for that point after the written high E passage? Maybe he was trying a new mouthpiece?
Then I remember quickly thinking: "So the man is human!" Nonetheless, his style, musicality, strength, expression, beauty of tone, intonation...were all impeccable...and–from an American's point of view–it was all very impressively done on a Bb trumpet!
I wondered if maybe it was a shallower mpc for that high passage, and then he went back to what he normally would play. That would tell me a number of things, since so much (but not all) of the orchestral world emphasizes "bigger is better," and you're not the best, unless you can play all of this piece on a Bach 1B mouthpiece with a size 18 throat! (Ouch!) I do not recall a distinct change in his sound following that passage, and I doubt seriously that maybe any would have noticed, except for maybe a couple of his nearby mates. Anyway, the experience has been one for encouraging me not to feel "locked into" the same equipment in a performance. Charlie Geyer mentions in an online interview that Herseth would use certain mpcs for certain rep, so maybe switching is not that uncommon for orchestral players. |
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sd4f Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:37 am Post subject: |
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There is this video, which is somewhat more recent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMYKvYc5aaw
There are close ups at times, and he's clearly playing a Bach Strad with a Denis Wick mouthpiece, I would guess one of his signature models. There is a close up of the mouthpiece, but the resolution of the video is low, so I can't make out what is stamped on the mouthpiece. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | mr oakmount wrote: | And yet I can usually tell it's Murphy, no matter if it is a 1979 or 1999 recording, Deutsche Grammophon or EMI, anologue or digital. |
I submit that you *think* you can because you already know who it is.
Given 20 recordings of Murphy and other players that you were completely unfamiliar with I'll bet you wouldn't be able to consistently pick him out. |
Hold my beer. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:55 am Post subject: |
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sd4f wrote: | There is this video, which is somewhat more recent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMYKvYc5aaw
There are close ups at times, and he's clearly playing a Bach Strad with a Denis Wick mouthpiece, I would guess one of his signature models. There is a close up of the mouthpiece, but the resolution of the video is low, so I can't make out what is stamped on the mouthpiece. |
I find it interesting that he used the alternate fingering of 2-3 on the 4th space Eb on the opening solo passage he plays from the Tan Dun Internet Symphony No. 1 "Eroica."
[Cue all non-Bach players: "Well, that wouldn't be the case if you play a ________ trumpet."] |
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