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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:01 am Post subject: Warmest Flugelhorn? |
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Hi guys,
I have a Kanstul 1525 Copper.
Is this the biggest, warmest-sounding flugelhorn ever?
If it's not, what is?
Thanks!
Ken
P.S. I think the copper bell has a lot to do with it! |
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puzzleheadedcow Regular Member
Joined: 09 May 2022 Posts: 48
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:15 am Post subject: |
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I think practicing has a lot more to do with a solid sound concept versus a bell material choise... As Ryan Kisor says "Less Facebook more Arban's book".
the horn is only one part of the equation. Until you figure out how to actually achieve your sound concept the horn doesn't really matter I think.
You spend a lot of time online it seems by all your posts. Maybe spend less time asking questions and more time playing long tones?
-PHC _________________ Trumpet!!!! I love it! |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I’m sure you’re right, but because of my job (I’m a priest in a busy parish) I don’t have the time or space to practice a lot. |
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puzzleheadedcow Regular Member
Joined: 09 May 2022 Posts: 48
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Kennyg2019 wrote: | I’m sure you’re right, but because of my job (I’m a priest in a busy parish) I don’t have the time or space to practice a lot. |
Well if you're not going to put the practice time in I don't think it matters. Good luck! There are no cheat codes in making music.
-PHC _________________ Trumpet!!!! I love it! |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your well wishes!
Anyone else?
I just tried a Van Laar B6 Copper but found the Kanstul warmer and "softer" (more diffused). |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:39 am Post subject: |
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A lot of the sound is dependent on the mouthpiece, especially with a flugelhorn. Some sound not so good purely because of that. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:47 am Post subject: |
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GR custom made me a “Grooms” mouthpiece that is perfect…big and warm and in tune. It’s a variation on his 3MX with the #4 Schilke rim…so soft! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9032 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Before I read further, the Mouthpiece thing was one of my first thoughts, too . . that and practicing with a clear mental concept of the sound you are after.
Regarding practice time, if it's limited, practice smartly, don't just play meaninglessly. If I wanted to work on tone, I would routinely play regular long tones, then Cichowicz Long Tones and the Bordogni Etudes both which I call "moving long tones". And check your mouthpiece.
And make dure you pick a role model for sound and listen, listen, listen. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:00 am Post subject: Flugel bells |
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I was showing my horns at a conference a while ago and on the table was a silver plated Scodwell flugel laying next to a copper bell Kanstul which Washington Music Center also sold. One week went by and nobody even looked at my silver flugel and went directly to the copper bell Kanstul.The irony here is my silver plated flugel was actually the darker sounding horn. This experience prompted me to start offering a copper bell model as "it has a copper bell so it must be a darker sounding flugel". In my line-up the copper bell flugel never sounded as dark as the yellow brass model. Eye candy for sure.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:02 am Post subject: |
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OK, Ken,
You and I have chatted via PM about this, but I can tell you the warmest flugelhorn sound by far: The Benge 5X
Yes, intonation sucks on almost all of them, but dear me that SOUND! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I've always been thinking that brass contributes to a warmer sound. Copper as well as nickel silver makes it dark, sure, but not warm. I find them cold sounding. To my ears, this has been proven over and over again with both flugelhorns and trumpets.
I guess that just illustrates the problem with language. |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:35 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | OK, Ken,
You and I have chatted via PM about this, but I can tell you the warmest flugelhorn sound by far: The Benge 5X
Yes, intonation sucks on almost all of them, but dear me that SOUND! |
That’s interesting. I had a Benge CG in school and it was the same…the best sounding (and worst intonation) in the section!lol
OK, so maybe I should qualify my question-statement: “What’s the biggest, warmest-sounding flugelhorn that can actually play in tune!” |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Flugel bells |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | I was showing my horns at a conference a while ago and on the table was a silver plated Scodwell flugel laying next to a copper bell Kanstul which Washington Music Center also sold. One week went by and nobody even looked at my silver flugel and went directly to the copper bell Kanstul.The irony here is my silver plated flugel was actually the darker sounding horn. This experience prompted me to start offering a copper bell model as "it has a copper bell so it must be a darker sounding flugel". In my line-up the copper bell flugel never sounded as dark as the yellow brass model. Eye candy for sure.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Hi Tony!
I actually tried one of your flugelhorns. I actually found it slightly warmer than the Kanstul, but I found the Kanstul bigger/broader sounding. So, I ended up staying with the Kanstul…but it was close! Thank you! |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:58 am Post subject: |
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krax wrote: | I've always been thinking that brass contributes to a warmer sound. Copper as well as nickel silver makes it dark, sure, but not warm. I find them cold sounding. To my ears, this has been proven over and over again with both flugelhorns and trumpets.
I guess that just illustrates the problem with language. |
Wow, I’ve heard copper described as cold-sounding before! 🤔
I will have to look into. Thanks. |
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puzzleheadedcow Regular Member
Joined: 09 May 2022 Posts: 48
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Kennyg2019 wrote: |
OK, so maybe I should qualify my question-statement: “What’s the biggest, warmest-sounding flugelhorn that can actually play in tune!” |
hmmm....
https://i.gifer.com/7yfr.gif _________________ Trumpet!!!! I love it! |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Before I'd consider replacing a horn as nice as the Kanstul I'd definitely try mouthpieces. Something like the Reeves HF might transform your experience. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:14 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Before I'd consider replacing a horn as nice as the Kanstul I'd definitely try mouthpieces. Something like the Reeves HF might transform your experience. |
Will do…I have a great GR mouthpiece but will try the HF! Thanks! |
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:54 am Post subject: |
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First, the flugel's a Benge 5, not 5X. 5X is the trumpet. I played one on and off for about 30 years. The bore is enormous, about .460, and I believe Zig Kanstul designed it while there in the 70s. For the life of me, I don't know what he was thinking. The intonation, even with the Benge mpc that came with it, was a horror show. I sold it to my friend Dayna who apparently found a mpc that works for her, and she records regularly with it. Loves it.
The 1525 has an equally enormous bell but a .421 bore. Intonation on any one I've played is incredible, and warm? It's like an electric blanket. And no tuning issues, at least per me.
I'm married to my Besson, though, so all of this is academic, and at .413 bore with the Couesnon sized bell and construction, nearly perfect (nothing is!)
ed |
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Kennyg2019 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2022 Posts: 261 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: |
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EdMann wrote: | First, the flugel's a Benge 5, not 5X. 5X is the trumpet. I played one on and off for about 30 years. The bore is enormous, about .460, and I believe Zig Kanstul designed it while there in the 70s. For the life of me, I don't know what he was thinking. The intonation, even with the Benge mpc that came with it, was a horror show. I sold it to my friend Dayna who apparently found a mpc that works for her, and she records regularly with it. Loves it.
The 1525 has an equally enormous bell but a .421 bore. Intonation on any one I've played is incredible, and warm? It's like an electric blanket. And no tuning issues, at least per me.
I'm married to my Besson, though, so all of this is academic, and at .413 bore with the Couesnon sized bell and construction, nearly perfect (nothing is!)
ed |
Someone else told me they love the Besson flugel. I think it was Gary Radtke!
May I ask your flugelhorn wife’s name? Which model and bell material?
Thanks! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9032 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Kennyg2019 wrote: | cheiden wrote: | Before I'd consider replacing a horn as nice as the Kanstul I'd definitely try mouthpieces. Something like the Reeves HF might transform your experience. |
Will do…I have a great GR mouthpiece but will try the HF! Thanks! |
Be careful what you wish for.
"Our warmest, darkest sounding cup available. Great for playing in the staff on ballads and smooth jazz, it is not recommended for extended upper register work." _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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