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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:11 pm Post subject: Counting measures after rehearsal marks - anyone confused? |
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Anyone else run into this problem?
Conductor says to start at 3 measures after 'letter A', but really wants to start at the beginning of the 3rd measure of the section beginning at A - which is 2 measures after letter A.
1 measure after A is the beginning of 2nd measure of section A,
2 measures after A is the beginning of 3rd measure of section A.
I tried googling about how are measures are counted, but didn't find any 'standard terminology' (aside from actual measure numbers). I thought there would be a section in standard 'music theory' textbooks about it.
Is that topic actually taught as part of Music Ed ?
(maybe it's just ME)! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Letter A is measure 1, etc. So if it's "3 measures after letter A", it's just that. A1, A2, A3. Don't overcomplicate it.
If I'm reading it right, you are not describing three measures after Letter A, you are describing the measure after the third measure after Letter A, which is actually four after A.
I suppose it might be clearer to say, the third measure after Letter A but I've always heard it condensed to "Three after A" or even "A3". _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat May 06, 2023 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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WxJeff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 2485 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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This made me smile.
Our church orchestra plays arrangements that come from so many different publishers that I have witnessed a wide range of how measures are numbered, lettered, or none of the above. We will on occasion have a few minutes discussion of where the director truly wants to start (you all will not find it surprising that we have to explain things twice to the trombone section )
To get way too deep into semantics, perhaps your conductor would have been more accurate to say "the third measure after letter A?" |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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WxJeff wrote: | ... To get way too deep into semantics, perhaps your conductor would have been more accurate to say "the third measure after letter A?" |
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yea, that's my problem - which measure is the "1st measure after A" - is it the measure that begins at A, or the next one?
Maybe some conductors consider rehearsal marks that are NOT actual measure numbers as just a single 'point' on the paper and not an actual measure. So beginning at the "1st measure after A" would be the same as "start at A".
ya know, this just bugs me ... _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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There's no reason, just because something has been done for decades or longer, that it could not be changed, if that change improves the status quo. But if there's no value-added to it, what's the point?
Frankly, tired of amateurs or new comers (not you Jay) quibbling over something that everybody knows what you're talking about. Really - if it's not broke don't try to fix it.
Technically, A is not a measure, it's an indication. So one after A is the first measure that follows tthe designation A. There is the designation A and a measure (one after A) follows. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 693 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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My biggest problem in (amateur, of course) concert band settings, at my age, is I have too much trouble hearing the conductor. He seems to mainly be talking just to the flutes (or first row cornets in Brass Band), but the percussionists behind me actually talk louder than the conductor about something totally off topic. And most of the jabbering members in all cases are band directors themselves! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | ... Technically, A is not a measure, it's an indication. So one after A is the first measure that follows the designation A. There is the designation A and a measure (one after A) follows. |
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THAT does make sense - but I wasn't able to find it (google) so clearly.
I can sleep better now, at least until next rehearsal on Tuesday ...
I was just discussing this with my wife and she mentioned the sometimes confusion in recipes of:
1 Cup of sifted flour
and
1 Cup of flour, shifted.
in a somewhat similar vein -
If April showers bring May flowers, what do May flowers bring?
..... furniture! oh, never mind! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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This is why I make my students number their measures. Obviously, it's not practical in many circumstances, but it sure smoothes out a lot of issues. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Now I am all confused. In my long career of trumpet and vocal music I have never thought about this. Nor can I remember coming in wrong.
JayKosta wrote: | Is that topic actually taught as part of Music Ed? |
Assuming you mean in college, not in my case. Nor in conducting or orchestration classes. I think by that time everyone has it ingrained in them. But given your question, maybe not. 🤷‍♂️
JayKosta wrote: | Anyone else run into this problem?
Conductor says to start at 3 measures after 'letter A', but really wants to start at the beginning of the 3rd measure of the section beginning at A - which is 2 measures after letter A.
1 measure after A is the beginning of 2nd measure of section A,
2 measures after A is the beginning of 3rd measure of section A. |
Fwiw imho, what I think:
“Begin at measure A” means the measure whose bar line the rehearsal mark is over. But the better way to say it is “Begin at A” or “Begin at Rehearsal Mark A”.
“Begin at the third measure after A” means count out three bar lines beginning with the one the mark is above and start at that measure.
This is also what I meant as a director.
Software programming has a similar issue where counting groups called arrays start at zero, not one. So if one wants to reference the first item in the group you say something like group[0] not group[1].
I had to make an effort in my early days to remember that.
JayKosta wrote: | I was just discussing this with my wife and she mentioned the sometimes confusion in recipes of:
1 Cup of sifted flour
and
1 Cup of flour, shifted. |
This one is pretty simple. The placement of the word sifted determines if you sift before or after measuring. My mom’s pie crust recipe is extremely sensitive to this.
Many recipes use weights for flour to get the correct amount since the settling/compaction of the four doesn’t affect the weight. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose 50 years ago my band director explained this concept, but I have no memory of that. It seems to me that the vast majority of the time what I hear is, "Let's start three after A," which at this point I instinctively interpret as "start at the third measure after A." _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 988 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Does everything need to be standardized though? This particular issue may happen once every so often, but at some point it'll generally resolve itself in some way. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 5:59 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: |
1 Cup of sifted flour
and
1 Cup of flour, shifted.
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It depends on whether you move the flour or not.
Eleven posts? Really?
I think I'm exhausted. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 288 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Counting measures after rehearsal marks - anyone confuse |
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JayKosta wrote: | Anyone else run into this problem?
Conductor says to start at 3 measures after 'letter A', but really wants to start at the beginning of the 3rd measure of the section beginning at A - which is 2 measures after letter A.
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YES! This occasionally happens. If all conductors would follow the above procedure there would no problem. But some conductors consider 3 after A to be the beginning of the 4th bar of A.
I actually asked a conductor about this by asking, 'where is one bar after A', and he replied, 'there is no 1 after A'.
If there is a 2 after A, how can there be no 1 after A?
1 after A does not mean the same thing as first bar of A (although some people think it does).
And if you think it does, what is Zero after A? And don't say there is no zero after A, because there is zero space between A and the next measure.
If all conductors would simply request (and many do) 5th bar of A instead of 5 bars after A, there would be no doubt whatsoever which measure was requested.
Hup |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Semantic quibbling. The bar that begins letter A is A1. the next bar is A2. Or the second bar after A.
I finally gave up on charts I wrote and named bars buy the number, not the letter, like they do in the studios. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Sun May 28, 2023 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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In 4/4, a measure has 4 beats - so 1 MEASURE after A would (to my thinking) mean - the measure that begins 4 beats after A.
'maybe' (and it seems a topic of debate and understanding) it's the difference between:
x MEASURES after A
and
x after A
I can understand the thinking of '2 after A' being the 2nd measure of the A section', given the concept of the A marking being a point in space that is between the end of the preceding measure and the start of the next one.
But '2 measures after A' means 2Xnumber-of-beats-in-a-measure .
" there are 10 type of people, those who understand binary, and those who don't " _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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To be blunt, I have only had this misunderstanding by amateurs and by not many at that. There's always someone who won't (not can't - won't) understand. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 288 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Frankly, tired of amateurs or new comers (not you Jay) quibbling over something that everybody knows what you're talking about. |
Everybody?
kehaulani wrote: | To be blunt, I have only had this misunderstanding by amateurs and by not many at that. |
So not everybody.
For the conductor to say start at A5 or B3, that would solve the problem; there is no doubt what measures those are. But who says A5 or B3? I think that's pretty unusual, because I have never heard it. But if there are conductors who use this system, fine.
What I actually hear conductors say is 5th bar of A or 5 after A. The former is unambiguous; there is only one measure that can be called 5th measure of A. The the location of the latter can be debated - as is the case in this thread - and the term unfortunately is not always used consistently.
Hup |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9031 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:23 am Post subject: |
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"Everybody" knows that the term "Everybody" in colloquial American-speak means "Most People". Why take the time and energy to quibble over something as inconsequential as that? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 11:57 am Post subject: |
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"5th bar of A" = "5 after A."
Does it make grammatical or mathematical sense? No.
Does that matter? Also no.
My recommendation is, accept it and get on with your life. The alternative is wasting rehearsal time by making people wonder what planet you are from, so that's probably not a good option. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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How about this?
"A" is not associated with a measure, it's associated with a bar line. Measure numbers delineate measure, letters delineate divisions between measures.
...Ignore the fact that you will hear, "Start at measure B." What else could that be but the measure after rehearsal mark B? _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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