View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 4:33 am Post subject: Did Kuhnl and hoyer ever make trumpets for the Besson brand? |
|
|
Hi all,
Does anyone know if Kunhl and Hoyer ever made trumpets for the Besson brand in the last twenty to thirty years?
I have a Besson model 712 trumpet which I previously enquired on TH about to try and locate the maker. At the time I was told that it was most likely made by Kanstul for Besson. But I have always been bothered by the faint, ill defined engraving of the word 'International' and the words Boosey and Hawkes, England on the Bell. On my recently acquired Kanstul 1600 the engraving on the bell is deep and crisp. One thing I always found to be quite unusual on my Besson 712 is that the front section of the thumb cradle on the first valve is quite long, reaching up below the bottom of the leadpipe. Today I noticed someone online selling a Kuhnl and Hoyer which appears to have the same distinctive thumb cradle and also the same valve tops, bottoms and buttons. _________________ Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Silver Spring, MD
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kanstul made some Bessons and likely B&H too, but probably not if it says England. It's more likely a Frankenhorn put together from various parts from different manufacturers. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hmmm I've just been comparing the serial number against the Horn-U-Copia lists and I'm even more puzzled now..
The serial on the trumpet reads 712 - 791175 marked on the underside of the bell section with no other numbers whatsoever anywhere else on the outside of the trumpet. If it falls into the Boosey and Hawkes serials list it would place it as having been made in London in 1991. The Besson logo is quite crisp but the International isn't easy to read and the 'Boosey and Hawkes, England' is small and hard to read but, strangely when you look at it through a magnifier it's clear enough. I am actually wondering if perhaps it's simply that the lacquer has filled in the stamping to a degree.
As an instrument it is light and produces a good tone. It also has 'Besson' printed in black on the side of the mouthpiece receiver.
Casting an eye far and wide over the internet I have yet to find a single picture of a trumpet the same as it.
I was actually about to sell this trumpet off on ebay this week but at the last minute I decided to give it another chance and I don't think I'll be letting it go now although I have no idea whether it's considered a good or a bad trumpet by people more knowledgeable on such things. _________________ Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 983
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 8:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Without seeing a photo of your trumpet, no one can say for certain where it originated. The thumb cradle isn't going to tell us much, and it's very unlikely that Kühnl & Hoyer ever stenciled Bessons.
There is a possibility that your trumpet was made in the Besson factory (owned by Buffet Crampon) near Delhi, India. Besson student tubas and euphoniums of reasonable quality have been made there for some time now, and they may be making trumpets as well. Counterfeit instruments labeled "Bessons" made in India entered the market about 20 years ago and were very poorly manufactured, but it sounds like your trumpet is much better than those were. I haven't seen any of these Delhi-made instruments, so any identification would be conjecture at best. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 983
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Definitely not a Kanstul. I would buy the story that this was put together with different parts from different sources, and that would be consistent with what I've heard happened after the Kanstul contract ran out. The U.K. was a likely location for it. Purely hearsay on my part, however. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
I had never come across reference to Boosey and Hawkes having made them here in the UK in the 2000's until checking the serials on Horn-U-Copia and I seem to recall reading a document somewhere that said the reason that they contracted to Kanstul to make trumpets for them was because it was too expensive to make them in the UK due to labour costs. _________________ Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
J. Landress Brass Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2006 Posts: 425 Location: New York City
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That is an Indian made Besson when Besson had factories in India, not to be confused with the knockoff pockets and instrument shape objects. Fairly decent horn, but certainly a student one. _________________ Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|