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Steve A
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Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1808
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| HagsJohnstrom wrote: |
ALL THAT SAID: many orchestra players don't have particularly good high ranges not just because of equipment but because of sound concept and the balance of chop/air support. I have spent way too much time building my range far beyond what I need for work, just to push the limits. I have never heard a fellow orchestra trumpet colleague play solidly above a high concert F. They can squeak out concert Gs on piccolo but that's where most people seem to top out. The range above the 12th partial is tricky, and the approach to air/chops most orchestra players use really shuts down around partial 9 or 10 in my experience. It has taken me literal years of additional practice to push my range out to the 16th partial (double C) because I had to learn to use my air differently and learn to hear a different tone up there. I can play a solid double C on my orchestral mouthpiece, but the tone isn't what I want and it's less clean/clear than if I pop in my 3C or 3D with a 24 throat.
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Ask a decent commercial/pop/rock/jazz player to pick up their horn and just play a high G with a good sound. No problem, nearly all pros can do that. Ask the same of an average pro orchestra trumpet player. They can't do it. There are exceptions, of course! |
This is not true of the full time orchestra players I know. If you were asking for a reliable, concert-ready double C on command, that might be a different conversation, but I can think immediately of a number of people I've heard warming up playing up to high G (concert F) on Bb or C trumpet. Really, to be secure playing Eine Alpensinfonie or Maher 8, you'd have to have range that consistently went at least that high. This may be true of the particular set of players HagsJohnstrom is around, but I think don't it's broadly representative. |
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JoshMizruchi
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 603
Location: Newark, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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There are many orchestral trumpet players (with jobs) who can play at least up to a high G or even double C’s. Most could probably play a high G usably if they had to, but don’t need to. Some can play usably above there and have. If you want me to name names, I can. Otherwise, rest assured that they exist. The orchestra business is a brutal one. Anyone who is making it in it or even just trying has my total respect (for that, at least).
To keep this Reinhardt-related, Doc helped many classical players (I’m pretty sure), and not all of them were trumpet players. One story I always remembered was this young french horn player. He came to Doc and asked him to turn around and listen while he played, without looking. Doc agreed. The first time Doc turned around, he heard a wonderful French horn sound from the student. Then, the student asked him to turn around again and he played again. This time, he sounded like he didn’t even play the French horn at all. Doc asked what had changed, and the young man said the second time, he was using an embouchure that his previous teacher had suggested he use. Well, Doc naturally told him, “Stick with the first embouchure you used!” The young man did, and Doc gave him some other pointers, I’m guessing. Then, he won I believe either a symphony orchestra gig or one in a studio orchestra. I always liked that story.
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Destructo
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Joined: 18 Apr 2022
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure whether HagsJohnstrom is indeed John Hagstrom or not.
It well could be (although I don't think Hagstrom palys a Bach 1.25C) but Mods - if it's not John Hagstrom, I think the username should be changed, so people don't misattribute opinions to the real Hagstrom.
If it *is* the real Hagstrom, thanks for dropping in. Your playing is wonderful! |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2163
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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When John Hagstrom of the CSO posts here, he usually posts under the username JohnHagstrom
He likely still uses a Yamaha Hagstrom mouthpiece, which is different from a Bach 1.25 C |
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HagsJohnstrom
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Joined: 19 Apr 2023
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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My username is just a joke, I’m not that person. Read what I said a little more carefully, I said most orchestra players can’t play solidly ABOVE a high concert F (12th partial). What I mean by solid: can play the note with no warmup, hit it directly, control it from pp to ff, single/double tongue it, leap to and from it without baubles or a change in the tone quality.
I believe this is a function partially of technique and partially of equipment. I have never heard an orchestra player play a double A or double C on a big horn with the command and sound that most commercial style players typically produce. It’s not impossible to play above the 12th partial with a large rim/deep cup/larger throat but it is difficult, and it’s especially difficult to produce any sizzle and volume up there if you typically play with a chop/air balance that produces a really full “orchestral” sound in the middle and lower registers. |
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Adam West
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 416
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| HagsJohnstrom wrote: | | My username is just a joke, I’m not that person. Read what I said a little more carefully, I said most orchestra players can’t play solidly ABOVE a high concert F (12th partial). What I mean by solid: can play the note with no warmup, hit it directly, control it from pp to ff, single/double tongue it, leap to and from it without baubles or a change in the tone quality.
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Ol' Hagsy here is living in a world where all non-orchestral players wake up and piss double C's before breakfast. I want to live in that world. I don't. But I'm a fan. |
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 1102
Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| HagsJohnstrom wrote: | | What I mean by solid: can play the note with no warmup, hit it directly, control it from pp to ff, single/double tongue it, leap to and from it without baubles or a change in the tone quality. |
By your standard there are very few players with solid upper registers.
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-Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: |
By your standard there are very few players with solid upper registers. |
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yep,
| HagsJohnstrom wrote: | | ... I said most orchestra players can’t play solidly ABOVE a high concert F (12th partial). What I mean by solid: can play the note with no warmup, hit it directly, control it from pp to ff, single/double tongue it, leap to and from it without baubles or a change in the tone quality. ... |
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Probably there are very few players of any style who would claim (and be willing to wager serious $) that they could accomplish it 'on demand'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JohnHagstrom
Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2003
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:44 am Post subject: |
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This is the real John Hagstrom. I just want to clarify that the person posting with a similar username is not me, and that I’ve asked him privately to stop posting using a name that can be confused with me. This is an interesting topic, but it’s complex and I can’t weigh in responsibly without needing to write a long article. Someday I will!
Thanks and best wishes! |
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cliffardo
Regular Member
Joined: 27 May 2023
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | Since this is in the Reinhardt Forum, I will mention some Reinhardt...
In general, IIIA embouchures play better on larger diameter mouthpieces and IIIB embouchures play better on medium diameter mouthpieces and would have endurance and range problems on larger mouthpieces. |
Sorry for the late response. I haven't been able to find an answer in the Encyclopedia (I bought a PDF version and it's hard to navigate): why do IIIA's do better on larger diameter? And what diameter rim and size cup are best? Chris LaBarbera recently typed me as a IIIA so I'm quite curious. I know I have been drawn to larger mouthpieces in the past because that's what seems to be the case in the classical world (Charles Schlueter and his massive Monette C1 size). I have a 1 1/4C equivalent and a 3C equivalent. I am also a return player so I am not sure if I should have just stuck with the 11b4 that came with my horn for now. |
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cliffardo
Regular Member
Joined: 27 May 2023
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| HagsJohnstrom wrote: | My username is just a joke, I’m not that person. Read what I said a little more carefully, I said most orchestra players can’t play solidly ABOVE a high concert F (12th partial). What I mean by solid: can play the note with no warmup, hit it directly, control it from pp to ff, single/double tongue it, leap to and from it without baubles or a change in the tone quality.
I believe this is a function partially of technique and partially of equipment. I have never heard an orchestra player play a double A or double C on a big horn with the command and sound that most commercial style players typically produce. It’s not impossible to play above the 12th partial with a large rim/deep cup/larger throat but it is difficult, and it’s especially difficult to produce any sizzle and volume up there if you typically play with a chop/air balance that produces a really full “orchestral” sound in the middle and lower registers. |
Sorry I'm late to respond to this, but I find this really fascinating. It's my impression that a lot of classical players favor large bore horns (or maybe this is the impression I get from certain trumpet manufacturers). Is there a preference for large bore in classical and smaller bore in lead/commercial? |
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cliffardo
Regular Member
Joined: 27 May 2023
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| JohnHagstrom wrote: | This is the real John Hagstrom. I just want to clarify that the person posting with a similar username is not me, and that I’ve asked him privately to stop posting using a name that can be confused with me. This is an interesting topic, but it’s complex and I can’t weigh in responsibly without needing to write a long article. Someday I will!
Thanks and best wishes! |
Hello! Thank you for piping in and sorry I am just now seeing these responses. If you ever do find the time to write that article I'd be very interested to read it!
I'm a return player and I tend towards classical trumpet and some big band (2nd chair) repertoire. In high school I had the impression that every classical trumpet player played something like Charlie Schlueter's giant mouthpiece and it's interesting to learn more about the mouthpiece you use and its diameter size. I would be curious to hear if you ever feel or felt pressure to use large mouthpieces in your world. |
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