Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:06 am Post subject: Are They Really Unfurled or Puckered?
Hello All. Perhaps it's me, but I see videos of those that are proponents of a pucker or unfurl embouchure. But when they actually play, their embouchure looks more like an "M", and not unfurled or puckered at all. Not a knock, but just seems to be an observation. Any one else notice that?
What you see on the outside does not always reflect what is happening below the mouthpiece.
Unfurl and pucker are sensations that the user is trying to convey. They may not always manifest physically in an obviously "stereotypical" way. What may feel like a pucker to one person may feel like "unfurl" to another may feel like "M" to another etc. Sensation is difficult to convey via language.
Understood that you can't see what's hidden inside the mp. However, both sides outside the mp looking at various artists known for an unfurled or pucker, or "fish face" embouchure look rather compressed, again as an "M".
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:11 am Post subject:
And even more difficult to reconcile what somebody actually does, vs what they think and say they do, vs what you should actually do, vs what it feels or should feel like you do. Or the negative of those, what you or they don't or shouldn't do or think you do.
I pretty much always always tell people I have to see what they're doing already, to know what to adjust and how to get there. Otherwise take all advice with a lot of salt.
Last edited by Doug Elliott on Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total
I'm in agreement Doug. Someone could explain to me the virtues of a particular embouchure & how it should look or be formed. But the old adage a picture is worth a thousand words works for me. Actually show me how to do what you suggest.
I think I tried to convey that an embouchure will look like an embouchure. If somebody says "I unfurl" someone else says "I pucker" etc., photographically they might look identical.
Play around with different "sensations" and see how it affects your sound and ease. But your embouchure probably won't look massively different from sensation to sensation.
Hello abontrumpet. Yes, an unfurl & a pucker can look the same depending on the "degree" of pucker or unfurl. And if both are done in moderation, they can look the same. (You're right). And yes, I am experimenting & I'm trying to work with a totally relaxed embouchure just VERY SLIGHTLY pulling my corners in for stability, as opposed to purposely forming an unfurl, pucker or even a specific "M". To that end, I'm thinking why create muscle tension before you play, as opposed to a natural "at rest" embouchure? ( Hope I described all that right). It's just that I see particular artists who advocate a pucker, fish face or unfurl, not do it as they put the horn to their face.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:03 am Post subject:
Trust what you can SEE, and then try to correlate the SEEING with the SAYING.
And don't worry too much about any pre-playing antics the might be shown or mentioned.
Another problem is to be overly focused on a particular player who might have some non-typical physiology that makes their 'specialized embouchure' work for them. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Hello abontrumpet. Yes, an unfurl & a pucker can look the same depending on the "degree" of pucker or unfurl. And if both are done in moderation, they can look the same. (You're right). And yes, I am experimenting & I'm trying to work with a totally relaxed embouchure just VERY SLIGHTLY pulling my corners in for stability, as opposed to purposely forming an unfurl, pucker or even a specific "M". To that end, I'm thinking why create muscle tension before you play, as opposed to a natural "at rest" embouchure? ( Hope I described all that right). It's just that I see particular artists who advocate a pucker, fish face or unfurl, not do it as they put the horn to their face.
I dispute that anyone plays with a "totally relaxed embouchure", it's one of these mythical notions that people regurgitate - it's a b.s. pseudo concept. You can't play on totally relaxed lips.
The shape of one's lips and teeth are going to be a factor - what's going to work for one might not work for someone else.
You don't want to just fixate on the vermillion of the lips - how the facial muscles engage - the upper & lower lips work differently, the teeth alignment and opening, tongue/mouth cavity, pressure/pressure distribution, air are all crucial factors as well.
Watch the closeups of Doc in these videos - does it look like his embouchure is totally relaxed? The tension is in the right balance and focus along with all the other elements that are going on.
Fantastic! To everyone's point (& to Doc's), I should correct myself & actually say that I'm trying to start over with the basics, & apply as much toward forming my embouchure if you will as necessary (i.e., what ever "manipulation" (for lack of a better word), is required). This to sustain my playing, especially higher in & above the staff & yet, not put a dent in my endurance by over manipulation. I felt along the way of my development, I was over doing efforts to form a proper & sustainable embouchure that resulted in my endurance giving out. The idea to me, is not expending more energy & facial "tension" than necessary to play, that will result in diminished endurance. Doc is an anomaly wrapped in an enigma man!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:29 pm Post subject:
jvf1095 wrote:
... I'm trying to start with the basics, & apply as much toward forming my embouchure if you will as necessary (i.e., what ever "manipulation" (for lack of a better word), is required). ...
-------------------------
Perhaps you are trying too much to actually 'form' the embouchure or aperture.
I view it more gently as 'forming the controlled mmm lip setting' and then making adjustments to the details of the setting - not physically trying to accomplish a specific 'form', but to achieve the 'feeling' that produces good results.
I think that starting with an overly precise image of what the embouchure / lips position 'should be' can detract from finding 'what works'. Yes there are general guidelines, but we know how difficult it is to explain or display them in a way that works for everyone. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
That's exactly right Jay; & to your point, I'm experimenting to see just how much "embouchure" so to speak is required to feel what's right & to correspondingly result in good tone, & at the same time not expend wasteful energy which will cause endurance issues.
That's exactly right Jay; & to your point, I'm experimenting to see just how much "embouchure" so to speak is required to feel what's right & to correspondingly result in good tone, & at the same time not expend wasteful energy which will cause endurance issues.
I agree with your approach. We can do all sorts of experiments to find the upper and lower bounds of all that we are doing. Then we learn all the ways the system compensates for it.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
