Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:42 am Post subject: Clark Terry
Hey guys! Im curious what type you think Clark Terry was? He almost does't move anything when hes playing, so its hard to tell (not that im qualified to type tho).
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:37 pm Post subject:
Clark looks IIIA to me.
Not so sure about Bob, but I'm going to guess IIIB. His angle is almost high enough to be a IV and his placement and sound could be.
I've seen both of them live a few times, and those were my thoughts then too.
From what I see in this video, Clark Terry plays with a downstream embouchure and a slight overbite (upper row of teeth is closer to the mouthpiece than the lower row of teeth). In contrast, Bob Brookmeyer appears to use an upstream embouchure with an even bite.
This is indeed how it appears on the video. As per wilktone.com:
"III, IIIB Medium High Placement More upper lip than lower lip inside the mouthpiece (downstream), usually between just over 50% and 70% upper lip inside. Pulls the mouthpiece and lips together as a unit down towards the chin to ascend. Horn angle is typically angled slightly downward and lower teeth are usually a bit receded behind the upper teeth, although there are exceptions."
And further:
"Reinhardt’s embouchure types III and IIIB are also very similar, although Reinhardt’s type III is pretty rare to find (Reinhardt himself belonged to this rare embouchure type). In terms of the mouthpiece placement and direction of the player’s embouchure motion these two types are identical. The type III embouchure is characterized by a receded jaw position, a horn angle that is pretty low, and when you watch the player inside a transparent mouthpiece there is a very pronounced lower lip roll under the upper lip as the player ascends.
As an aside, I think that most of the type III player players I’ve seen (only three that I know of, they are uncommon) probably were really other types in a particular stage of their development when they need to rely on the lower lip roll, but as these players develop strength they will probably gravitate more towards Reinhardt’s IIIB or IIIA types."
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject:
chase1973 wrote:
Clark was a IIIB not a IIIA
Doc himself mistyped quite a number of players as IIIB when they turned out to be IIIA. Lots of IIIA's look like IIIB at certain times, and can play quite successfully with IIIB mechanics... or constantly switching between IIIA and IIIB. I have seen it so much that I'm very familiar with that situation.
And Mike Sailors is familiar with that too... he's one of them.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:35 pm Post subject:
Is there a difference between
Player IS a type xxx
and
Player DOES the adjustments of a type xxx
My guess is that many players do adjustments that are consistent with some Reinhardt 'type', but does that really indicate that those adjustments are the 'best' type for them? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
This is where it gets confusing. Can a IIIA have IIIB mechanics? i.e. pull down to ascend, etc? and still be successful as a player? I know going by horn angle is not always the way to tell what type a player is.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:51 pm Post subject:
Clark had a very muscular face and terrific embouchure control. I don't know much about Reinhardt types so I'm not qualified to comment on that, but he could do whatever he wanted on the trumpet and the sound was always there. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Clark had a very muscular face and terrific embouchure control. I don't know much about Reinhardt types so I'm not qualified to comment on that, but he could do whatever he wanted on the trumpet and the sound was always there.
Agreed. I sat no more than 10 feet away from him the only time I heard him live and got to play behind him with a jazz ensemble. Clark was a very efficient player and never looked like he was straining. He could scream when he needed to or play delicate tricky phrases with ease. Along with that he was an incredibly nice man.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:43 pm Post subject:
Doug Elliott wrote:
Lots of IIIA's look like IIIB at certain times, and can play quite successfully with IIIB mechanics... or constantly switching between IIIA and IIIB. I have seen it so much that I'm very familiar with that situation.
And Mike Sailors is familiar with that too... he's one of them.
I, too, am a guy who played IIIB for decades with varying degrees of success. When I added tuba to my regimen in July of 2017 that began a type-switching spin that Doug found a IIIA "cure" for me on all my instruments.
I remember Chris LaBarbera telling me that Doc told him pretty much *all* tuba players end up as IIIA, and as much as I didn't think that was happening with me, alas, playing IIIA on one instrument and trying to play IIIB on the others (trumpet and bass trumpet) resulted in a near-death experience for my embouchure.
Glad that Doug paid attention during his lessons with Doc! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:50 pm Post subject:
IIIA's generally function more correctly on bigger mouthpieces. I don't actuallly think tuba players tend toward IIIA any more than other instruments, but it can make IIIA function more obvious.
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