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ek1986
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Joined: 03 Mar 2023
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:37 pm Post subject: Oil Viscosity (in terms of response and blow) |
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I hesitated to post about this because I know most players would say that I am overthinking it. However, I know there will be a few trumpeters out there that can relate to this.
Oil viscosity (in terms of valve speed) matters to me as long as the valves aren't too slow. However, my job in the symphony orchestra doesn't necessarily require me to play fast technical stuff or improvise all the time. This is why valve speed isn't the main concern when I choose a certain viscosity.
I have noticed that the response and even the feel of my horns (Yamaha Artist Gen III series) changes quite a bit when I use either thick, regular, light or super light valve oil.
Is this something that any players out there have been able to perceive? When I use a super thick oil (i.e. Berp Bio 2, 3 or Hetman 3) the horn responds quite well but it can certainly feel tighter, which isn't great when you're feeling tired at the end of a taxing work.
When I use a super light oil (Denis Wick or Yamaha Super Light) the horn feels way more forgiving but it also becomes less efficient (almost like it is leaking).
I believe finding a good medium is best in this situation which for me was Yamaha Light or Monster "Faster". These oils provides a good balance between response and feel.
Personally, I believe the Yamaha Regular oil that comes with the Yamaha Artists models isn't the best for those horns considering the highest level of efficiency that these trumpets have. This is why I went to a lighter viscosity oil.
Has anybody experimented or been able to identify these differences in terms of response and feel?
Thanks in advance for the helpful responses!
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Rogerrr
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Joined: 16 Feb 2020
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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This is exactly what I'm trying to understand....it's more confusing for me because I'm an inexperienced player so it isn't easy to tell if a thicker oil is making my cornet with leaky valves play better or if the problem is ME
I wish there was more clear information available about the viscosity of oils so they'd be easier to compare
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Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player ) |
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etc-etc
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6195
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you got it all exactly right. Heavier / thicker oils are designed for valves with looser fit. Lighter oils, for valves with tighter fit. |
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prinmancz52
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Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 27
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Monster Faster, or Monster Faster (the thin stuff)?
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stuartissimo
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Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 995
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Viscosity (in terms of response and blow) |
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| ek1986 wrote: | | When I use a super light oil (Denis Wick or Yamaha Super Light) the horn feels way more forgiving but it also becomes less efficient (almost like it is leaking). |
You’re pretty much spot on with your observations.
Valve oil (and slide grease) has 2 functions: the first is lubrication. The second function is to act as a seal to prevent air leaks. When the valves on a trumpet are worn, the space between valve and casing becomes bigger. A common cheap trick to ‘fix it’ is to use a thicker valve oil to try and create a better seal. Usually this makes the instrument easier to play.
So yeah, your observations are accurate. Different valve oils can affect how the instrument plays quite a bit, but mostly when the valves are worn. On new modern instruments, the valve tolerances can be so small that thicker oil might not even fit in the space between the valve and the casing though.
| Rogerrr wrote: | | This is exactly what I'm trying to understand....it's more confusing for me because I'm an inexperienced player so it isn't easy to tell if a thicker oil is making my cornet with leaky valves play better or if the problem is ME |
From what I understand a good way to tell is how easy the notes below the staff play. Also, make sure you add grease to your slides…it can improve playability a lot.
| Rogerrr wrote: | | I wish there was more clear information available about the viscosity of oils so they'd be easier to compare |
Here you go. It’s is a bit old but still accurate.
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Oil Viscosity (in terms of response and blow) |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | ek1986 wrote: | | When I use a super light oil (Denis Wick or Yamaha Super Light) the horn feels way more forgiving but it also becomes less efficient (almost like it is leaking). |
You’re pretty much spot on with your observations.
Valve oil (and slide grease) has 2 functions: the first is lubrication. The second function is to act as a seal to prevent air leaks. When the valves on a trumpet are worn, the space between valve and casing becomes bigger. A common cheap trick to ‘fix it’ is to use a thicker valve oil to try and create a better seal. Usually this makes the instrument easier to play.
So yeah, your observations are accurate. Different valve oils can affect how the instrument plays quite a bit, but mostly when the valves are worn. On new modern instruments, the valve tolerances can be so small that thicker oil might not even fit in the space between the valve and the casing though.
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You forgot to mention that you have to blow on the small end of the trumpet.
BTW Yamaha Artist Gen III trumpets are not really known for their leaky valves. |
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Rogerrr
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Posts: 144
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Thanks….I saw that list earlier. I was using Conn trombone slide oil because my repair guy recommended it but Ultra Pure Classic seems to work better…and the low notes did pop out & sound better. I am going to try thicker and thicker oils until I find the right balance between sealing the valves and making them too sluggish ….so I guess Alisyn should be on my list
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Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player ) |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3313
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 4:33 am Post subject: |
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The valve (and slide) lubrication can certainly have an effect on the 'air leakage' of the instrument. And that can affect some playing characteristics beyond 'valve speed'.
But I think that any perceived effects beyond that are the result of the tactile feel of the valve action, and perhaps the hand grip position and pressure.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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etc-etc
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6195
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Oil Viscosity (in terms of response and blow) |
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| delano wrote: | | stuartissimo wrote: | | ek1986 wrote: | | When I use a super light oil (Denis Wick or Yamaha Super Light) the horn feels way more forgiving but it also becomes less efficient (almost like it is leaking). |
You’re pretty much spot on with your observations.
Valve oil (and slide grease) has 2 functions: the first is lubrication. The second function is to act as a seal to prevent air leaks. When the valves on a trumpet are worn, the space between valve and casing becomes bigger. A common cheap trick to ‘fix it’ is to use a thicker valve oil to try and create a better seal. Usually this makes the instrument easier to play.
So yeah, your observations are accurate. Different valve oils can affect how the instrument plays quite a bit, but mostly when the valves are worn. On new modern instruments, the valve tolerances can be so small that thicker oil might not even fit in the space between the valve and the casing though.
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You forgot to mention that you have to blow on the small end of the trumpet.
BTW Yamaha Artist Gen III trumpets are not really known for their leaky valves. |
Perhaps viscosity of oil is contributing to damping of vibrations:
1) between the pistons and casings, or
2) between the 1st and 3rd slides and inner legs (for that, valve oil would need to be administered in such an excess as to reach the slides)? |
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Jimbosan
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Joined: 15 Dec 2023
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I would think you would want to use an oil that is thick enought to prevent the valves from leaking. Thicker oil also stays on the valve surface longer.
I used Hetman no. 1 on a Schilke B2 that I used to have. I prefer Hetman no. 2 on my Kanstul French Besson Classics, but the springs on the Kanstuls are much stiffer than the springs that were on the Schilke.
You could try using stiffer springs if you need to use a thick oil to reduce valve leakage.
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