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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:12 am Post subject: Uncertain Pitches |
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First, a little about me:
Age: 68
Playing level: amateur
Horn: Yamaha Xeno (about 20 years old)
Mouthpieces: Curry 5C, Stomvi 5F VR #4 coupler
Practice Routine: Daily using mainly fundamentals and etudes
I have trouble with 4th space E and top line F. Starting a piece or phrase on them is dangerous because I'm more likely to miss them than nail them. The E is shakey within an arpeggio going either up or down but especially down. The F is scary usually just when starting on it. Now, I can nail the third line D or the above the fifth line G...or Ab, or A...justin. I recently played another horn (a 1970 Bach Mercedes) with which this problem did not happen. Sooo, do the gentlemen of the forum think this is a fault with my Xeno or do I need to do something technique-wise? Yes, I work the E and F every day with scales and etudes. Yes, I imagine the pitch in my head before playing. _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 11:53 am Post subject: |
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1. Disassemble and clean out your horn thoroughly and make sure there's nothing in it like maybe a paperclip that crawled up through the bell.
2. Have somebody else play your horn to see if it's you or the horn.
3. If it's not the horn, you may be playing low range and high range differently and the problem notes are where you're making the switch. Maybe upstream and downstream. I do Skype lessons and can help with that. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2047 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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You have a few mouthpieces. Does it happen regardless of which mouthpiece you use?
If you play a C scale starting on low C and continue up to the G above the staff and then back down, what happens with the E and the F? Do they come out cleanly or not? If not, is the problem both up and down?
If you are playing the E open, try the above again using 1 & 2 for the fourth space E, and again using just 3. Does the E come out ok, or is it still an issue? Similarly, you can try playing the above with the F atop the staff fingered 1 & 3 vice just 1. Still a problem? |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Bachatit Regular Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 57
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Those notes are in what I consider my "transition" range between high and low. The problem of bracking/cracking the notes does not exist above or below the transition for me. What I speculate is that the firmness outside the aperature is set "too low" for that midrange and results in unpredicable note reproduction. Now, when I enter the mid-range I try to "set" more like the notes above, ie. keep appropriate firmness, and have had excellent results. Doesn't happen overnight but takes many, many months to see results. Best |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I struggle with the top line F and the B above that more than anything else as an entrance note. |
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matthes93401 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 641
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I've become a fan of The Breathing Gym and The Brass Gym, both from the same authors. It's designed to help you get centered. In the Brass Gym, there are note bend exercises that can be very helpful in finding the sweet spot of notes. Also mentally, if you can imagine the pitch in your mind and think about placing the notes. |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1532 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:06 pm Post subject: Uncertain pitches |
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Hello all,
I really don't think it is a gap problem. I don't know the mouthpieces in question, so I can't type to that, either. I play with similar folks in community groups, and attribute what Barry is describing, as performance confidence, for a lack of a better description. this could be age or health related. I would continue scales, etudes and arpeggio work, with a focus on the 4th and 5th partial. Familiarity with the notes in question, on that equipment should get better. My nemesis is the A just above the staff. I just need to keep working on the centering of that note to keep it consistent. For those who want to fix it for me, 3rd valve is my cheat. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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matthes93401 wrote: | ... finding the sweet spot of notes. Also mentally, if you can imagine the pitch in your mind and think about placing the notes. |
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The goal is not just 'imagine the pitch' (which certainly is important), but to also train yourself to unconsciously (an automatic learned response) DO the physical actions that are needed for the note.
I believe that slow deliberate practice with attention given to pitch, physical actions, and SEEING the written note on paper all go together for this. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2333 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:43 am Post subject: |
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yes, there are notes that don't start or slot as cleanly as most, this can vary a little from player to player, horn to horn. The top line F is a common one. C# above the staff is a particularly odd one for me.
I have a concern with your mouthpiece setup. Curry mouthpieces are slightly longer (total length) than most others. I found that when I had one cut for sleeves that it did not take this into account - in essence shortening the design, which takes the mouthpiece out of balance. Mark designed them that way for a reason (I can't tell you why) but if you change the length it certainly won't perform the same, and I'd bet against it being an improvement. I would try a stock Curry mouthpiece and see if this helps a little.
I've also not been happy with mouthpieces cut for sleeves - the added connecting mechanism (rubber grommet) has an impact on tone / playability.
Could also try a Yamaha mouthpiece. like a 14B4 to see if that changes things.
Then like everything else, we must practice those things that challenge us daily .
With a 20 year old instrument, you may also have the receiver checked for wear (proper mouthpiece fit), valves checked for alignment, and the instrument checked for leaks / compression - could be just "loose" enough to make it harder for things to slot. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Almost every single post had blamed your trumpet or mouthpiece. Rather than do that, why not look at your playing from the utmost of basics and go from there? (Sure - clean your gear, but that's it)
Look at your breathing. Basic issue - hitting notes = basic breathing - FILL up, and MOVE air faster. See what happens.
Look at your basic chop setup. Can you buzz without a mpc.? Work on it, despite what many will say, lip buzzing saved my playing.
Put the two together. You don't even need a trumpet or mouthpiece to do this. Take this back to your instrument and try this different approach. See how those pesky notes go now, without your inbuilt tendencies to hesitate and tip-toe around them.
It might just work...
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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