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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:40 pm Post subject: The best mouthpiece for any trumpet |
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Can a mouthpiece design be the best for any trumpet model ? |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2044 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Do you mean can one mouthpiece be best (for you) for all trumpet models? If so, I'd say "no." There are a number of reasons, but an easy one is that there is variation in mouthpiece receivers from manufacturer to manufacturer (and even from model to model). So your favorite mouthpiece will not always be at a consistent gap from trumpet model to trumpet model.
For example, I had a Bach Artisan 3C with a shank tapered such that it sat loosely in some of my horns -- literally unplayable -- and perfectly in others. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Let the fighting start In contrast to Dayton I’d say, yes, there can be such a mouthpiece. I have drastically reduced my mouthpiece stable and am down to four (trumpet) pieces left, out of which I really only use two, out of which there is one that I do use for everything on every trumpet I played so far (piston, rotary, lightweight, heavy(ish), Bb, C, …). It works from classical & orchestra all the way to jazz and commercial stuff. The single one situation my #2 comes out is when I have to play very loud, very high, and whatnot for hours (which I basically never need to do nowadays).
However, this is extremely personal and may not apply to every trumpet player. Plus I’m only an amateur hack, so what do I know _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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I would argue that it depends on your situation.
If you desire no variation in your sound palette and gain no advantage by using different mouthpieces on different horns, then a single mouthpiece can work for any trumpet you use.
However, most players desire a broad and variable sound palette and chose the right "tools," i.e., mouthpiece and horn combination, for the job.
This seems especially true in orchestral and similar classical settings where a trumpet player may need to adjust one's equipment to blend in when performing any of five centuries of music genres. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Let’s just say I desire sound variations and I can achieve that by approaching the instrument differently. Moreover, my main piece sounds very different on the rotary vs a lead horn. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 990 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:28 am Post subject: Re: The best mouthpiece for any trumpet |
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kerouack wrote: | Can a mouthpiece design be the best for any trumpet model ? |
Given that 'best' is hard to define overall, I'd say no. Best for for a specific person, maybe. But like JWG mentioned, mouthpieces can be used to color the sound; which is why many players will use a different mouthpiece for a piccolo trumpet than for their Bb for example. It's probably not strictly neccesary for everyone, but generally it makes specific things easier. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Depends on the player-some use different mouthpieces for different horns sone don't. I use on mouthpiece on different horns, but will use different gap sleeves to account for differences in the receiver and in how the horn plays. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Bill Ortiz wrote: | Depends on the player-some use different mouthpieces for different horns sone don't. I use on mouthpiece on different horns, but will use different gap sleeves to account for differences in the receiver and in how the horn plays. |
I do it this way too.
Take care and best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:00 am Post subject: |
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From my experience, Bach mouthpieces don't perfectly work in Yamaha trumpets, also my GR mouthpieces dont perfectly work in my Yamaha trumpet.
It is completely clear that the yamaha mouthpiece that i have, even not been the diameter i usually use, not the rim, not even the cup i usually use, works A LOT better in my Yamaha trumpet .
I never used gap sleeves. Yes, that could be a complete or partial solution.
Dayton perfectly got my point, thats what i mean. I dont mean using just " one mouthpiece", but just " one basic design ", that can have different rims or cups to change your sound so really be 3 mouthpieces.
I agree with Dayton.
My point is, can a GR or monette or Lotus or AR or picket or Reeves or any other mouthpiece, for example, be GREAT in a Bach trumpet and ALSO great in a Yamaha trumpet ? or they have to make a compromise to work just fine in both ? |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:16 am Post subject: |
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kerouack wrote: | From my experience, Bach mouthpieces don't perfectly work in Yamaha trumpets,
I agree. Bach mouthpieces generally insert 1mm less than Yamaha trumpets, and in my opinion, Yamnaha trumpets require this extra 1mm insertion amount.
also my GR mouthpieces dont perfectly work in my Yamaha trumpet.
It is completely clear that the yamaha mouthpiece that i have, even not been the diameter i usually use, not the rim, not even the cup i usually use, works A LOT better in my Yamaha trumpet .
Yes, because it gives the right gap for a Yamaha trumpet.
I never used gap sleeves. Yes, that could be a complete or partial solution.
In my experience it would be. I play a James R New copy of a Bach 3C, sleeved to insert like a Yamaha mouthpiece, and it plays great.
Dayton perfectly got my point, thats what i mean. I dont mean using just " one mouthpiece", but just " one basic design ", that can have different rims or cups to change your sound so really be 3 mouthpieces.
I agree with Dayton.
My point is, can a GR or monette or Lotus or AR or picket or Reeves or any other mouthpiece, for example, be GREAT in a Bach trumpet and ALSO great in a Yamaha trumpet ? or they have to make a compromise to work just fine in both ?
In my opinion, you have to have it cut for sleeves, and use a sleeve that allows it to insert 1mm further into a Yamaha trumpet. That has been my experience anyhow.
Take care and best wishes
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, and what about other horn brands ?
Is Yamaha the only one that needs " something special " to be done in the mouthpiece ?
All brands use exactly same design of receiver except Yamaha ? |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:44 am Post subject: |
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kerouack wrote: | Thank you, and what about other horn brands ?
Is Yamaha the only one that needs " something special " to be done in the mouthpiece ?
All brands use exactly same design of receiver except Yamaha ? |
You are very welcome. I don't really know so conclusively about other brands, playing a Yamaha trumpet, but I believe that Schilke and Kanstul mouthpieces also insert further, so presumably Schilke and Kanstul trumpets like this further insertion amount.
Take care and best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Chickynuggie Regular Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2024 Posts: 18
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I completely second JWG on this. I use a Klier in my rotary, Schilke in my picc., 3CVR Davinci (Stomvi) in my Bb, 3CVR 5 Stomvi in my C, lately I’ve been using a Benterfa in my D trumpet, so on.
The Klier is a great mouthpiece for rotary, but if I’m not in excellent shape it can feel too big. The Schilke is great for high register work but very bright. The Davinci is perfect for my Bb, but the 5 resonated differently in the C. The Benterfa cuts out a lot of the higher harmonics allowing my D to sound closer to the bigger horns, but intonation/slotting is better and the fingerings aren’t as clunky (looking at you, end of Brahms 2…).
🤷🏻♂️ |
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kerouack Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 347 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:28 am Post subject: |
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A list of which mouthpieces fits perfect in a Bah receiver and which fit perfect in a Yamaha receiver (and may be other like Kanstul and Schilke ) could be useful. |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1843 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:11 am Post subject: |
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kerouack wrote: | A list of which mouthpieces fits perfect in a Bah receiver and which fit perfect in a Yamaha receiver (and may be other like Kanstul and Schilke ) could be useful. |
How would you define "fits perfect"? I think you might be chasing "problems" that are not there. Of course different mpcs fit differently in different brand trumpets. Heck, my guess is that even in the same brand trumpet and exact model trumpet a mouthpiece will fit differently. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:58 am Post subject: |
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kerouack wrote: | A list of which mouthpieces fits perfect in a Bah receiver and which fit perfect in a Yamaha receiver (and may be other like Kanstul and Schilke ) could be useful. |
I agree that theoretically this is a great idea, but sadly because every measured difference in shank end diameter results in a twentyfold difference in insertion amount, you can easily get a range of different insertion amounts from mouthpieces from the same manufacturer.
But my experience is that on average, Yamaha mouthpieces insert 1mm further than Bach mouthpieces.
How you do deal with this if you play a Bach mouthpiece and buy a Yamaha trumpet?
To me, my Bach 3C, both played and even sounded stuffy on my Yamaha Xeno II. I had a copy cut for sleeves, and dialled in the mouthpiece gap for me on my Yamaha trumpet.
Anyway, getting back to your question, since Reeves sleeves have a numerial numbering system, a chart compared the average shank dimensions of common mouthpiece manufacturers to Reeves sleeves would be useful in my opinion.
But for it to be really useful, you'd really need a companion one for common makes of trumpet with a suggested Reeves sleeves size for that trumpet, and here the problem begins, and I'll explain why.
Ideal mouthpiece gap is dependent on not only the make of the trumpet, but also on the parameters of the mouthpiece, and the player.
I'd say that in the case of wanting to play a Bach mouthpiece on a Yamaha trumpet, in my opinion Yamaha mouthpieces are pretty similar to Bach mouthpieces. Take a Bach 3C and Yamaha 14B4, and map them on top of each other on a mouthpiece comparator. The cups map virtually perfectly on top of each other. The standard Yamaha Backbore is also similar to a Bach 10 backbore. If a Bach 3C inserts 24mm in your Yamaha trumpet but a Yamaha 14B4 inserts 25mm, I personally feel that sleeving the Bach 3C to insert 25mm would be a reasonable way to go for a lot of players, as you are replicating the insertion amount of the Yamaha equivalent of a Bach 3C, but this won't work for everyone.
Also this probably would not work for mouthpieces that are a lot more different to Yamaha mouthpieces. I would have thought that sleeving a Monette to insert like a Yamaha mouthpiece would be very unwise, as they are so different in parameters.
I've run out of time, but hopefully what I am saying is making sense.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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