Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 2:41 am Post subject: Reinhardt Buzzing and Lip Position
Something I was thinking about today as I was doing some buzzing because I was having a bit of an off day was how different Reinhardt Style lip buzzing is compared with both how people often seem to demonstrate it.
The Reinhardt Style buzz seems to be very much top lip vibrates, bottom lip provides the facing that the top lip vibrates against. The top lip is always forward of the lower lip, often creating a very notable overlap. Dave Wilken's videos have plenty of great examples.
Outside of these examples, people almost always demonstrate buzzing with the lips vertically aligned. Some of them seem to be able to create a focused buzz in this fashion, for example Charlie Porter. Another is Pacho Flores:
[youtube]www.youtube.com/M5plzVQAkWM?si=hsXBOjicj2h1XyG3l[/youtube]
Both lips seem very active in the buzz, as.compared to the Reinhardt Style where it is primarily the top lip that vibrates.
For me, the difference in what muscles are involved is also dramatically different. I also can't really focus the buzz with the lips lined up like that. I get this wide, thin aperture I can only really control by rolling in an out and which pinches shut very easily.
Reinhardt Buzzing really makes the area below the mouth corners activate, and the mouth corners draw inwards to focus the buzz, at least for me.
They're so completely different in feel that they might as well be for two totally different types of instruments.
These two styles seem to feed into two different schools of thought, one where the lips are supposed to be aligned like a pair of french doors, and one where there is overlap. The lips-aligned idea is something I have always really hard to let go of conceptually because so many people, including heaps of brass pedagogues say definitively that the tucked lower lip is wrong. Some goes as far as calling it a 'broken embouchure'.
Every time I think I've stopped caring about those folks, I come across some new proclamation from a wonderful player. I was, for example, reading Peter Bond's book 'the Singing Trumpet' which is a really wonderful book, so many good things in there, but you get to the part on embouchure and it's the same old story - lips should be aligned. If they aren't you'll have a 'wooden sound'.
Except if I follow the instructions on how to set the embouchure, I just get a sound that is full of rattle. And I start wondering, am I the outlier here or are they?
It wouldn't bother me except that I teach and I very much don't want to impart years of frustration one someone because I told them that holding their face a particular way was wrong either explicitly or implicitly. And so this stuff does end up keeping me up at night.
I really wish brass pedagogy wasn't such a mess...
I know I haven't really phrase any questions here, but I'd love thoughts, perspectives and experiences relating to any of it!
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:52 am Post subject:
I guess maybe I should do a video on buzzing.
This part of your post is absolutely correct:
"The Reinhardt Style buzz seems to be very much top lip vibrates, bottom lip provides the facing that the top lip vibrates against. "
However they don't necessarily have to overlap noriceably for that to happen.
It's all about using the muscles below your corners to keep the chn flat and the lower lip firm so it can't flip out. I demonstrate it by buzzing my top lip against the side of my finger- it sounds the same, and that's a completely different sound and feel than the "other" way of buzzing.
It definitely doesn't necessarily need a significant lower lip 'tuck' for want of a better word. There's a few examples in Dave's buzzing video where I can see the lower lip is almost aligned, but I can also see that it's the top lip doing the vibrating rather than the lower lip.
Porter actually demonstrates a Reinhardt Style buzz and then says this should be avoided - see around the 2:20 mark.
Not trying to have a go at Porter here, or muddy the waters of this sub forum, but it's just a very obvious example of how buzzing is so often taught. People wanting that lower lip to be actively involved in the vibration.
I've observed in my own playing around with a visualizer, that when the rim is set against the lips, the lower lip tuck becomes visually less noticable. In fact, the two buzz settings don't really look very different visually once the mouthpiece rim is in play (at least for me), but the differences in feel and response and even sound character is really different. The rim by virtue of a higher placement for downstream players helps keep the lower lip from blowing forward.
I also can't articulate well at all in the upper register if I don't set in the Reinhardt manner which is quite interesting as well.
I wonder whether the both-lip buzzers are simply able to make that work for them, or if they are playing differently than they buzz.
I also wonder if all the people who say buzzing is harmful say that simply because they're trying to buzz both lips qne and it simply doesn't translate to the instrument.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:45 pm Post subject:
"Porter actually demonstrates a Reinhardt Style buzz"
No, that's not a Reinhardt style buzz and it's definitely not anywhere close to what I teach.
Reinhart never told me to tuck my bottom lip in and overlap. I sometimes have students do that as a temporary means to keep the bottom lip under control so it doesn't flip out - if it has that tendency. As I have said many times, any instruction depends on what you're already doing. There's no need to warn against something that's not happening. Or say to do something that you're already doing.
He has some good things to say, and I sort of almost agree with some of his ideas about buzzing That's all I'm going to say.
I can never find the page I want in the encylopedia, but from memory, I recall it saying the lip should be rolled in slightly over the lower teeth, with the top lip reading down to make contact, and that their air should be blown downwards, and the buzz focused to one spot on the lips.
If I follow all of those instructions, most of the pink of my lower lip diappears, and it looks quite similar to what Porter said is wrong, but there is no overlap happening. If I walk this buzz in, I get a beautiful sound and everything else Reinhardt talks about works and makes complete sense. If I let the lower lip unroll much and buzz/play the way Porter demonstrates as correct, then nothing works.
You're the expert here so I'm not for a second going to argue with you, but this is evidently a topic where some further clarification would be handy!
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Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:07 am Post subject:
It would be safe to say that I don't agree totally with Reinhardt's description of how to buzz, and I also don't think the video you referenced has particularly good examples.
Try NOT having "the buzz focused to one spot on the lips" and instead creating a wide area of buzz. Just try it and see what you think.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:11 am Post subject:
Destructo wrote:
... where some further clarification would be handy!
...
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Maybe already described, but 'clarification' could begin by explaining the 'physical playing results' that doing the buzz exercises is supposed achieve.
By 'results', I mean the 'while-playing' controls and adjustments, versus the specific the while-buzzing actions or appearance. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
It would be safe to say that I don't agree totally with Reinhardt's description of how to buzz, and I also don't think the video you referenced has particularly good examples.
Try NOT having "the buzz focused to one spot on the lips" and instead creating a wide area of buzz. Just try it and see what you think.
Hey Doug,
Always happy to try stuff - should I walk this buzz in?
... where some further clarification would be handy!
...
----------------------------------
Maybe already described, but 'clarification' could begin by explaining the 'physical playing results' that doing the buzz exercises is supposed achieve.
By 'results', I mean the 'while-playing' controls and adjustments, versus the specific the while-buzzing actions or appearance.
For me, the buzz itself is almost entirely about form-development. As in, learning to hold and maintain the correct lip posture, meaning the correct muscles are activated and engaged.
Walking the buzz in then applies that to the instrument. If you buzz incorrectly, which most beginners don't do (or aren't shown how to), when you apply that to the instrument, the sound is awful. If you buzz correctly and carefully place the mouthpiece on top, the sound is actually excellent.
One practises buzzing as a strengthening exercise for the correct form, and also in order to learn to set the mouthpiece with the correct form already established.
It's like learning the correct initial form for a golf swing. Sure, when you swing the club, it's not the same thing as standing there getting everything lined up just right, but if your grip and posture are off before you even make your swing, then then problems will cascade.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 11:29 pm Post subject:
Destructo wrote:
For me, the buzz itself is almost entirely about form-development. As in, learning to hold and maintain the correct lip posture, meaning the correct muscles are activated and engaged.
Walking the buzz in then applies that to the instrument. If you buzz incorrectly, which most beginners don't do (or aren't shown how to), when you apply that to the instrument, the sound is awful. If you buzz correctly and carefully place the mouthpiece on top, the sound is actually excellent.
One practises buzzing as a strengthening exercise for the correct form, and also in order to learn to set the mouthpiece with the correct form already established.
It's like learning the correct initial form for a golf swing. Sure, when you swing the club, it's not the same thing as standing there getting everything lined up just right, but if your grip and posture are off before you even make your swing, then then problems will cascade.
I would add to your term "lip posture," including jaw position.and corner position. It's really more about that than the lips, they're just along for the ride.
And I would describe it more as a "positioning" exercise rather than a strengthening exercise. It's much more about holding the position, not strength.
This is absolutely correct: " If you buzz correctly and carefully place the mouthpiece on top, the sound is actually excellent."
Yes the lips do buzz.
I'm not a golfer so I can't address that comparison.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Reinhardt Buzzing and Lip Position
Destructo wrote:
Outside of these examples, people almost always demonstrate buzzing with the lips vertically aligned... Another is Pacho Flores:
[youtube]www.youtube.com/M5plzVQAkWM?si=hsXBOjicj2h1XyG3l[/youtube]
Both lips seem very active in the buzz, as.compared to the Reinhardt Style where it is primarily the top lip that vibrates.
I can't seem to get that video to load - is it this one?
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I can't tell why he is doing that buzzing.
Is it supposed to some sort of training exercise, or just an example of his ability doing buzzing. I wonder how (or if) he correlates his lip position for free buzzing with lip position for playing. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
-----------------------
I can't tell why he is doing that buzzing.
Is it supposed to some sort of training exercise, or just an example of his ability doing buzzing. I wonder how (or if) he correlates his lip position for free buzzing with lip position for playing.
I haven't directly come across much of his teaching, so I don't know specifically what he's aiming for, but it is an idea in the Stamp school that some people naturally lip buzz an octave below the corresponding position on trumpet. I would speculate it might be his own take on that, either by way of modelling on the Stamp instructions, or independently finding his way to the same thing.
You can see some notes from a masterclass he gave in 2014 on pages 3-4 of this:
------------------------
Thanks for the link . _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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