Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject:
Labeling music by genres or subgenres is useful as a starting point or shorthand way to describe music that shares historical, stylistic threads but they do not have clearly defined boundaries. Most of the terms were created by writers after the fact.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:21 pm Post subject:
Dizzy Gillespie- - Lee Morgan - Terence Blanchard
" Is that a necessity to be able to play jazz?"
Think of it as enjoying the journey not knowing where you've been or where you're going, or being adept at map reading and knowing full well where you are and in relation to your surroundings, no matter where you go. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:37 pm Post subject:
Check our Chase Sanborn talking about various styles of Post Bop. Interesting stuff. He has a BUNCH of great Youtube vids teaching trumpet playing, improvising, jazz theory, jazz history, and a bunch more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKZDT4l7FAQ _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: See & Raise
Didymus wrote:
I see you and raise you:
Fats Navarro - - Freddie Hubbard - - Woody Shaw.
What a coincidence, Didymus, those were the exact three that came to my mind, next. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: See & Raise
Didymus wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Dizzy Gillespie- - Lee Morgan - Terence Blanchard
---snip---
I see your Gillespie-Morgan-Blanchard, and raise you:
Fats Navarro - - Freddie Hubbard - - Woody Shaw.
You can both fold:
Idrees Sulieman - - Terumasa Hino - - Palle Mikkelborg 🤪 _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
I’d go with Dizzy - Clifford (how dare someone leave him out ) - Miles - Erik Truffaz _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
I’d go with Dizzy - Clifford (how dare someone leave him out ) - Miles - Erik Truffaz
Actually, I should promote a personal favorite -- Kenny Dorham (probably belongs in the hard bop category).
With Miles, you'd have to go Miles -- Miles -- Miles! _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 08 Apr 2002 Posts: 263 Location: Madison, WI
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:07 am Post subject:
There aren’t any official distinctions and it isn’t important to spend time thinking about it. Listen to as much great music as you can, transcribe your favorite solos, and you’ll be fine. _________________ https://www.youtube.com/adamczerepinski
Halflip: yeah, Kenny Dorham and Blue Mitchell are two favorites as well but Cliffords recordings were what got me started on modern jazz. Though I play and listen to a lot of other music I always come back to bop and hard bop and to Brownie in particular. Been practicing Joy Spring today - one day I’ll get ist really right _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
yeah, Kenny Dorham and Blue Mitchell are two favorites as well but Cliffords recordings were what got me started on modern jazz. . . . Been practicing Joy Spring today . . .
Yeah, I love Clifford, too; really inspired, harmonically adept solos, and Joy Spring is a masterful composition (among several). The fact that he was taken from us at such a young age (25) in a car crash breaks my heart.
There is a video on YouTube of Clifford playing a couple of tunes on the TV show "Soupy's On" (Soupy Sales was a big jazz fan, believe it or not). This is said to be the only known video recording of Mr. Brown:
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:41 am Post subject:
Brassnose wrote:
always come back to bop and hard bop and to Brownie in particular.
I had the good fortune and am from a generation when public libraries (remember them?) were a major source of printed and recorded material, and my library had a major assortment of early bebop recordings that you could actually take home. I listened to those Brownie, Diz, Fat Girl, Bird, Monk etc. recordings voraciously.
Bird with Strings, Max Roach/Clifford Brown, Jazz at Massy Hall, yeh, man. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:08 pm Post subject:
I'm a jazz history nerd and have taught the subject at some great music schools for around four decades. Nonetheless, opinions on a lot of this stuff are like noses. Everyone has one and most of them smell.
Those terms are pretty arbitrary, even though almost everyone uses them. Add to that the fact that the musicians themselves didn't label the styles. Music critics and marketing people with the record companies made up the terms and the musicians only later adopted them when they were being widely used. Nevertheless, here's my take.
What we call bebop was called "modern jazz" by the musicians at the time (1940s pretty much immediately after WWII). It is generally acknowledged that bebop came from a cohort of young avant-gardists led by Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and a few others. There are a few musicians who basically played a style rooted in pre-bop who could hang and had elements of the new thing in their playing. For trumpeters, this might include folks like Howard McGhee. But right on the heels of Gillespie and Parker there were other bebop trumpet players (many played in Parker's group) including Navarro (the greatest exemplar of bebop style IMO), Dorham, Red Rodney, Young Miles (who struggled at first with Parker, but eventually got his bebop chops and vocabulary together by the late '40s to a degree most non-nerds are unaware).
Bebop was the new thing and the avant-garde. The audiences were small and the gigs were sparse, so sparse that keeping together working bands with consistent personnel was almost impossible. Most recordings and gigs were with groups that were picked up for those opportunities from the small pool of players who were conversant with the new style. So, rather than having bands the pool of musicians was like a repertory company where the lead role and the collaborating players were drawn together. If you couldn't get Kenny Clarke on drums you called Max Roach and if he was busy you called Roy Haynes, etc. The tunes they played were usually known to all and gigs and records were lightly rehearsed jam sessions.
The improvised solo style of hard bop for the most part is not that different from the way beboppers played. The difference was that by the early '50s there were more small jazz clubs around the country and that every city of any size had a radio station that aimed at an African-American audience and the record labels that recorded the new jazz (Blue Note, Prestige, etc) got their new releases into the hands of the DJs for jazz shows. So the audiences in Dayton, Ohio and Peoria, Illinois knew the music, knew the artists who were on the leading edge, etc and followed those artists. It became possible for people who were "jazz famous" to book tours around North America and have enough gigs to keep a quartet, quintet, or sextet together and make a (barely) living wage playing new music. Hard bop bands got tighter ensemble work and were able to develop more intricate arrangements due to regular work and consistent personnel. Think of groups like Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, The Horace Silver Quintet, Clifford Brown-Max Roach Quintet, the '50s Miles Davis Quintet (the group with Coltrane), etc.
1959 was a turning point for the music. There have been documentaries about all that happened in that year in jazz history. Many artists introduced new approaches to organizing their music, new forms and structures, etc. This is such a giant thing that I'd be writing a book. By this point the language, vocabulary, ornaments and gestures, etc. of bebop had become a common language for most all jazz musicians. But adapting their playing to tunes with slow moving harmonies, or no set harmonies, or no set form, etc. brings in what I consider post-bop.
Most players today study bebop and hard bop in jazz school (at least in America...and in Graz) and some never leave that. Others move far away from the bebop training and might find elements of those styles embedded in quite a few different ways of making music. The majority of today's leading players can create at a high level on bebop, hard bop, post bop music and beyond. I'm thinking of folks like Tom Harrell, Sean Jones, Scott Wendholt, Jim Rotondi, Marquis Hill, and on and on. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Last edited by PH on Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:04 am Post subject: Music Industry Terms
PH wrote:
I'm a jazz history nerd and have taught the subject at some great music schools for around four decades. Nonetheless, opinions on a lot of this stuff are like noses. Everyone has one and most of them smell.
Those terms are pretty arbitrary, even though almost everyone uses them. Add to that the fact that the musicians themselves didn't label the styles. Music critics and marketing people with the record companies made up the terms and the musicians only later adopted them when they were being widely used. Nevertheless, here's my take.
What we call bebop was called "modern jazz" by the musicians at the time (1940s pretty much immediately after WWII). It is generally acknowledged that bebop came from a cohort of young avant-gardists led by Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and a few others. There are a few musicians who basically played a style rooted in pre-bop who could hang and had elements of the new thing in their playing. For trumpeters, this might include folks like Howard McGhee. But right on the heals of Gillespie and Parker there were other bebop trumpet players (many played in Parker's group) including Navarro (the greatest exemplar of bebop style IMO), Dorham, Red Rodney, Young Miles (who struggled at first with Parker, but eventually got his bebop chops and vocabulary together by the late '40s to a degree most non-nerds are unaware).
Bebop was the new thing and the avant-garde. The audiences were small and the gigs were sparse, so sparse that keeping together working bands with consistent personnel was almost impossible. Most recordings and gigs were with groups that were picked up for those opportunities from the small pool of players who were conversant with the new style. So, rather than having bands the pool of musicians was like a repertory company where the lead role and the collaborating players were drawn together. If you couldn't get Kenny Clarke on drums you called Max Roach and if he was busy you called Roy Haynes, etc. The tunes they played were usually known to all and gigs and records were lightly rehearsed jam sessions.
The improvised solo style of hard bop for the most part is not that different from the way beboppers played. The difference was that by the early '50s there were more small jazz clubs around the country and that every city of any size had a radio station that aimed at an African-American audience and the record labels that recorded the new jazz (Blue Note, Prestige, etc) got their new releases into the hands of the DJs for jazz shows. So the audiences in Dayton, Ohio and Peoria, Illinois knew the music, knew the artists who were on the leading edge, etc and followed those artists. It became possible for people who were "jazz famous" to book tours around North America and have enough gigs to keep a quartet, quintet, or sextet together and make a (barely) living wage playing new music. Hard bop bands got tighter ensemble work and were able to develop more intricate arrangements due to regular work and consistent personnel. Think of groups like Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, The Horace Silver Quintet, Clifford Brown-Max Roach Quintet, the '50s Miles Davis Quintet (the group with Coltrane), etc.
1959 was a turning point for the music. There have been documentaries about all that happened in that year in jazz history. Many artists introduced new approaches to organizing their music, new forms and structures, etc. This is such a giant thing that I'd be writing a book. By this point the language, vocabulary, ornaments and gestures, etc. of bebop had become a common language for most all jazz musicians. But adapting their playing to tunes with slow moving harmonies, or no set harmonies, or no set form, etc. brings in what I consider post-bop.
Most players today study bebop and hard bop in jazz school (at least in America...and in Graz) and some never leave that. Others move far away from the bebop training and might find elements of those styles embedded in quite a few different ways of making music. The majority of today's leading players can create at a high level on bebop, hard bop, post bop music and beyond. I'm thinking of folks like Tom Harrell, Sean Jones, Scott Wendholt, Jim Rotondi, Marquis Hill, and on and on.
Hello Professor Harbison, I enjoyed reading your post.
My 2 cents: I accept that sub-genres like Cool, West Coast, Free (Ã la Don Cherry) can be lumped into post-bop. The industry also uses or has used labels like third-stream, latin-jazz, fusion, smooth, and more recently, "jazz-adjacent". My smelly opinion ( ) is that one cannot really count fusion and smooth jazz as post-bop. I also think that most of the time, when one used the word fusion during the 1970s, they likely meant jazz-rock fusion.
Fusion = Weather Report
Smooth = Kenny G
Adjacent = Kamasi Washington
Or, since this is trumpet-centric conversation:
Fusion = Randy Brecker
Smooth = Chris Botti
Adjacent = Timmy Trumpet
But where does a group like Medeski, Martin & Wood fit inside those industry labels?! Or a trumpet-centric group like Sexmob? _________________ Enjoy the journey.
And this Wikipedia listing is very helpful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_in_jazz _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
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) - Miles - Erik Truffaz
) is that one cannot really count fusion and smooth jazz as post-bop. I also think that most of the time, when one used the word fusion during the 1970s, they likely meant jazz-rock fusion.
