Olds Recording cornet leadpipe: Re-O-Loy or nickel-silver?

[djfinton]

In the last few years of production, Olds changed the leadpipe on their Recording model cornet from red brass to nickel-silver. I'm wondering what effect that had on the sound, and which is more desirable.

I don't care about corrosion or resistance to red-rot. Just sound. Does it have any effect on "warmth" or "richness" or projection?

[stuartissimo]

James Becker explains the effects of a nickel silver leadpipe in this thread (and is confirmed by Brett Getzen, another credible source).

Basically, if everything else remains the same, it makes the instrument’s sound brighter. However, there’s also mention of the taper and other parts affecting the sound. Olds may have made other adjustments to compensate for the change in leadpipe.

As for desirability, the general vibe on TH is that the brass leadpipe Recordings are nicer than those with the nickel silver leadpipes (not having played the brass version I cannot confirm). That may carry over to the general opinion on Recording cornets as well.

I actually didn’t know Olds switched leadpipes on their Recording cornets as well. ‘Bright’ and ‘cornet’ doesn’t seem like a popular combination. Olds probably had a reason for making the change though, and it’s possible the effect on the horn is relatively minor.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[JonathanM]

I've got both at the moment, and as a '66 with the nickel-silver leadpipe just came in, I've been waiting to post.

Let me preface further remarks by saying that I think the Olds Recording is one of the greatest cornets ever made - in my opinion. I'd guess that I've had 50 or 60 cornets; mostly vintage but several Strads and Zeno's, a few Getzen as well. I still like the Olds Recording best.

My older Recording at present is from around '56 - slightly after Olds converted to the standard mouthpiece taper; on this model, which has the 'Re-O-Loy' or bronze leadpipe, the trigger activates the length of the third slide. My newer Recording cornet is from about '66 - it has the nickel-silver leadpipe AND the trigger was moved to the bell. This, to me, is a huge deal... Like the Puje, we now have a 'whole horn' tuning device. If you want to finger E in the staff 1&2, you can just pull the trigger slightly and the intonation descends slightly.

As to the difference in tone between the two cornets, it's actually not quite as significant as I expected. The bell is still bronze, and while I think the nickel-silver gives the newer Recording a SLIGHTLY brighter or more lively tone, it's not a significicant difference.

Below is a video where I use 4 different mouthpieces and record these two horns back to back. With the first and last mouthpiece I also play a '64 Olds Super Cornet and a '54 Olds Studio Cornet. If you click down to the Comment Section at YouTube (under the video) and click the slightly bolded 'more' below that, you can move directly from instrument to instrument - missing some of the details but gaining a better horn to horn comparison. My tone was a bit airy the day I made the vid. I don't claim to be the best player here at TH, and I'm afraid this YouTube vid will confirm this. Still, I hope the vid is beneficial for comparison purposes.


Link

_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[djfinton]

@stuartissimo - Thank you! Just what I was hoping to learn.

@JohathanM - Very cool! I almost grabbed that same Recording cornet on Quinn's site. Glad it went to a good home. Listening to your excerpts, I'm still not sure which I prefer. With the deeper GR 6, I mixed up which clip was which; I thought at first that the bronze leadpipe sounded brighter. Or... perhaps less breadth and more focus? What do you hear?

I read that Olds switched to the nickel leadpipe in '66, and also, shortly after, they gave up on the ornate bell engraving on the Recording models. Yours still has the fancy engraving. I wonder if the change in the engraving marks a change in priorities for the company, where quality was no longer top priority.

Anyone know whether all the pre-66 Recording cornets had the trigger on the 3rd slide instead of the tuning slide? Or was it an option?

I like the GR 6 mouthpiece in your clips. My favorites now are, in order, Bach 5A, Curry TC (either 1.5 or 3), and Bach 3.

[Louise Finch]

Very interesting, thanks, and a great video.

Personally I preferred the sound of the nickel leadpipe with the first two (shallower) mouthpieces and the bronze leadpipe with the second two (deeper) mouthpieces. It seemed to me that they seemed to match better that way.

Maybe that was just my impressions watching the whole video. I'll have to listen to the more direct comparisons, and see whether I still feel the same.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[nieuwguyski]

[stuartissimo]

Thanks for putting up the video. Maybe it's my audio system (or my ears yikes), but I hear very little difference between the various setups...and that includes the Super and the Studio.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Rwwilson]

I believe that it is difficult if not impossible to judge the tonal qualities of any horn by using recordings posted on the net. There are so many variables that enter into the recording and playback processes, including mic type and placement, recording post production and playback equipment. In addition individual players can greatly impact the sound. Listen to great players like Arturo Sandoval. He can produce a broad spectrum of sound without any change to his equipment. He does this intentionally but less skilled players may do it unintentionally when comparing different setups.

[JonathanM]

I'm using a Shure KSM 32 microphone, which is a pretty good mic - actually known for its clarity. So clear, in fact, that it is NOT liked by many initially: it presents what many artists consider a 'true sound'. I do ajust the high, low and mid to try and achieve what I consider a 'true' brass sound. I add more reverb than some like, but most symphony halls are much more alive than the small carpeted rooms that we often and practice in. I'm just stating this to explain where I'm coming from.

The sound of all four of these is close, but there is, I honestly believe, a differenence. How keen our ears are AND how we listen is probably as great a distinction from person to person as the sound of these four cornets are.

For instance, if you listen to each of these four closely with your Iphone speaker, well, you won't hear much difference. With a quality set of headphones, which is my preference for intense listening, I believe that you will hear distinction between each horn.

However, in the past I have said that a blind test in an ideal acoustical setting, identifying different trumpets would be interesting. Again, the trained ear of a top symphony player will likely be more keen than the average 'weekend warrior' amongst us.

After playing these four Olds cornets off and on for several days, here is what I glean from each...
1. The '55 Recording is dark.. It is almost certainly the darkest trumpet, cornet or Puje that I have: Only a flugelhorn might be darker - and I think that would be a close distinction, actually. The bronze/redbrass leadpipe AND bell are likely responsible - but so is the wrap, I believe.
2. The '66 Recording, with its nickel-silver leadpipe, has more 'bite'. Some mouthpieces accent this bite more, some less. Personally, I relish nickel-silver with my Strad trumpets; I have a nickel-silver MK tuning slide that I think adds greatly in achieving what I call a 'complex' sound when paired with a brass bell, or a sterling silver plus bell, and certainly with a bronze bell; and I enjoy using it with all three Strads that have the afore-mentioned bells. On this Recording cornet, the nickel-silver leadpipe doesn't distance the sound, in my room at home or via a mic, as far from the '55 Recording cornet as I had anticipated. But careful listening with quality listening device(s) does show SOME difference. It also leads me to believe that the wrap of the Recording cornet is also responsible for its dark tone. The Olds designers and builders definitely impress me: They certainly knew what they were doing.
3. The Olds Studio Cornet... I've wanted one of these for years and finally found one locally a few months ago. I won't keep it, I limit myself to 3 or 4 cornets and I like the Recording and Super more (and I REALLY like the Olds Special cornet which I also have). With it's plentiful bends, what surprised me most about the Studio cornet is that it has a somewhat breathy sound; I wasn't expecting this. I thought this 'breathyness' was noticeable on when recording; am I mistaken? Or do others here this as well?
4. The Olds Super Cornet... It's just a blast to play. It almost certainly sounds more like a trumpet than the other three cornets here, but it is still a cornet. Certainly more brassy than the Recording cornets, and also less breathy than the Studio, it's a very fun horn to play and to have. Still, I can tell a difference between the tone of the Super cornet and the Super trumpet that I have. The difference on all of these, though, is a matter of degrees; it isn't day and night.

At one point I wanted to have (and I have had) most of the common Olds horns. I don't enjoy collecting as much as sampling and making YouTube vids (which is a serious hobby with me), so I've sold several of my Olds horns. But I think I'll always keep a Recording and a Super cornet on hand. Truth be told I enjoy the cornets more than the Recording and Super trumpets.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[Louise Finch]

[stuartissimo]

I listened again using headphones, and there are indeed some (subtle) differences in the sound. This time I could hear differences between the various cornet models and especially the mouthpieces, but the differences between the 2 Recording cornets took a few times listening before I could really hear them (I think the notes are a little 'crisper' on the nickel-silver leadpipe version?). Lou's and your ears are better than mine I guess, and I'm not a cornet player so that may also be part of the reason.

I don't doubt that you experience those differences much more pronounced live though; having recently made some recordings of my bandmate testing flugels I found the recordings just didn't capture the finesses of what sets an instrument apart from the others...even when they were clearly noticeable in person. I don't think it's neccesarily a bad thing that the Recording cornets sound so similar, and Olds may have intended them to be as similar in sound as possible.

Finally, I commend you for your consistency while playing. I agree with Rwwilson that comparing instruments in video's is hard to do. However I find listening to consistent players playing many different instruments helps to compare the nuances of each instrument because it effectively takes the player out of the equation, and to show the instrument's differences (or similarities). You're one of the people who's videos I use for comparing instruments on Youtube, so I definitely appreciate the work you put into them.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Rwwilson]

I agree with the other posters that the Recording is a great cornet. In fact it is my go to horn when I am playing alone. One thing that was mentioned in passing was the change in the mouthpiece receiver that occurred in the 50s. At first it would seem to me that this would have had a bigger effect than the lead pipe material change that occurred later. I have two Recording cornets, one with the older, larger taper and the other with the standard taper. Both have the Rey-O-Loy lead pipe. When I compare them against each other using a Curry 2BBC mouthpiece in each I am unable to detect any difference. Perhaps I am just not sensitive enough to tell the difference.

[jeirvine]

[huntman10]

I feel one aspect of the Recording (and Super Recording) cornets is that the lead pipe opens into the 0.468" valve bore in a very shot distance, as opposed to the cornets which go to a tuning slide before the valves. This makes the pipe "more conical" in effect.

Conn made several Victor (5A and Coprion 9A) and 76A Connquest models in the early sixties with a very similar non shepherds crook short wraps, BUT opening into their 0.484" bore. These are a bit underappreciated IMHO, especially as middle price "poor guy" options.

Having said that, I did keep my 1947 Recording and SR cornets and sell my short wrap Connquest and Victor.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[jeirvine]

[nieuwguyski]

[stuartissimo]