| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JWG
Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 258
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:42 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Searching for the perfect mouthpiece will not serve you well.
A mouthpiece is the combination of rim diameter, rim shape, alpha angle, beta angle, cup shape, cup depth, throat diameter, throat length, back bore diameter, back bore shape, and back bore length.
How the heck will any one mouthpiece qualify as perfect with so many variables???
I am a mere trumpet hobbyist, but, over my decades playing, the only thing you need to chose to perfection is the interface between your lips and the horn.
If you have a rim that fits your lip size and shape and lays comfortably upon your underlying dentition, all of the remaining variables can change and you will still have the ability to use that mouthpiece for performing some genre or style of music.
The music that you perform may require a shallower or differently shaped cup, a larger or smaller throat, and a different back bore, which you can change up to suite the music.
Regardless, you will never perform well on a rim that does not fit your lip and dental physiology.
So, just focus on finding the perfect rim for you rather than the perfect mouthpiece.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CaptPat
Regular Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2023
Posts: 43
Location: Eastern NC
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Is looking for the perfect mouthpiece stupid or not? |
|
|
| freimers wrote: | | So, is looking for the perfect mouthpiece and spending too much money doing it just stupid? Is it a substitute for practice and talent? |
Looking for a better mouthpiece (within reason) is not stupid, spending too much money is stupid. However, it's your time and money being expended.
As a hobbyist, practice time has a far greater impact on how much and fast I improve as a player. If your current mouthpiece is holding you back then perhaps change is in order. If so I wish you luck in this endeavor. However, the plethora of manufacturers, solutions to issues, materials, etc., etc., along with an absence of standards can easily become a sink for time and money. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JWG wrote: |
Regardless, you will never perform well on a rim that does not fit your lip and dental physiology.
So, just focus on finding the perfect rim for you rather than the perfect mouthpiece. |
AMEN. Took me 40 years to figure that out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: | Let’s reverse the question: “Is doing the same thing your entire life and never trying something new stupid?”
I think the actual answer for most players lies somewhere inbetween. Going for perfection may not be very effective in the long run, but sticking to what you have that doesn’t work, just because someone else found a good mouthpiece in their first pick, doesn’t seem sensible either.
As long as you don’t obsess about it, and don’t spend too much money, there doesn’t seem to be any harm in trying new things. Just my opinion of course. |
This. Very much this.
It's not about finding perfection, it's not about finding a substitute for practice.
It's about finding a set of compromises which works well for you.
It's about finding what suits you well - where IMHO a more optimal fit allows practice to show results faster than a mediocre fit.
Part of laying "in between" means allowing time to acclimate to potential mouthpieces, to be systematic in knowing which factors matter for you, and not go on a scattergun spending spree trying whatever catches your eye first. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 936
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rhondo wrote: | | Yesterday I watched an interview with Jeff Purtle, who said Claude Gordon told him using one bad mouthpiece is better than using 2 good ones, and that he should stay on the one he had been using, and throw the others away. |
A slight correction to above. It was actually Charles Brady that said that about one bad mouthpiece vs two good ones. Claude totally agreed though. Trumpet players are crazy and so gullible. Look at how many people go to ITG and think they are going to buy another horn or mouthpiece or a dumb gadget and improve their playing. How many people get that excited to buy a book like Saint-Jacome and spend 6 years gradually working though it with models and using other books to go with it? Nobody gets excited about that because it's not quick.
At this past 2023 ITG at my booth we gave away some pretty cool books and I was showing some of them to a very well known player that is excellent. I was showing him how cool this book David Bertie is that is a companion to Saint-Jacome with history and explanation and a strategy to help use Saint-Jacome. We were also giving away another book by David Bertie that is an expansion and improvement on the Aaron Harris Advanced Studies book. I also showed this to the same guy and explained how it has scales and arpeggios, two technical etudes with models and two virtuosic etudes taken from violin works. This happens in all 30 keys of 7 sharps and 7 flats in all Major and minor keys. The dude was obviously disengaged not in the conversation. I spoke to another player that's well known and he got super excited and sent me an email in a week about how he liked it.
I wish everyone spent their time on smarter practice and method books. It does so much more and gets faster results than wasting time and money on endlessly searching for equipment or thinking taking one lesson from a well known player is going to do something magical.
If you don't change how you practice you won't play any different.
Jeff
_________________
Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
david johnson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 1617
Location: arkansas/missouri
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Looking for one that's perfect for YOU is not stupid. There are a billion mouthpieces. Surely one is better for you than the others...for a while. Embouchure can change when infections suddenly claims certain teeth. Then you have to go on safari again. While you are searching, find one that works best and keep progressing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 990
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeff_Purtle wrote: | | Trumpet players are crazy and so gullible. |
Since the gloves are off anyway, let me say that I also have an opinion of stoic professionals that insist on keeping 'amateurs' from experimenting or trying new things, denying them the opportunity to make a potentially major positive change just because said change wouldn't matter them.
My experiences are quite different from yours. I struggled a lot back when I still played (for lack of better term) 'conventional mouthpieces'. I switched to a 'boutique brand' with a much larger throat and open backbore, and it has done wonders for my playing. Not immediately, but it finally allowed me to make some actual progress, where convention would have just left me playing fundamentals until I were blue in the face with no results to show for it. The equipment change allowed me to play differently, which resulted in being able to practice differently, and that made all the difference. You could have given me a trunk of books and years of lessons, and the effects still wouldn't have made such a difference as that single mouthpiece switch did.
Why would you deny anyone who is struggling a similar experience, just to save them some money? Just encourage them to be financially smart about it, and let them sort out their own path. Which, you know, may just be different to your own, but that doesn't make it 'less'.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | My experiences are quite different from yours. I struggled a lot back when I still played (for lack of better term) 'conventional mouthpieces'. I switched to a 'boutique brand' with a much larger throat and open backbore, and it has done wonders for my playing. |
I keep going back to a mouthpiece that is more open and helps focus my embouchure and allow more tongue arch controlled range. That means it is a more open mouthpiece. Restrictive, read that as your average 27ish throat, mouthpieces may sound great at first, but I find them tiring.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: | | Jeff_Purtle wrote: | | Trumpet players are crazy and so gullible. |
Since the gloves are off anyway, let me say that I also have an opinion of stoic professionals that insist on keeping 'amateurs' from experimenting or trying new things, denying them the opportunity to make a potentially major positive change just because said change wouldn't matter them.
|
100%
Part of this, I think, is a self-selection bias.
It goes a bit like this:
1) You get a large enough number of people reinforcing each others belief that "everyone should play xyz mouthpiece".
2) Those who naturally suit the magic "xyz" and put in enough work will succeed.
3) Those who succeeded with the"xyz" believe that nothing else is, or could possibly be, necessary for success.
What then happens is that any students that are naturally very badly suited to "xyz" are doomed to relative mediocrity no matter how much they practice, so long as they accept the received wisdom that it working for others means that they are the problem.
My view is somewhat different - I think that a small amount of experimentation, preferably supervised, can be very positive and prevent the most heinous of player-mouthpiece mismatches, in turn reducing the amount of wasted talent and/or wasted practice effort...
There's very obviously a point beyond which it becomes too much, and becomes counterproductive - there is most definitely a huge benefit to finding a reasonable compromise and settling on it for a decent period of time to make good progress and build consistent habits in a way that regular switches hinders.
Last edited by TKSop on Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: |
My experiences are quite different from yours. I struggled a lot back when I still played (for lack of better term) 'conventional mouthpieces'. I switched to a 'boutique brand' with a much larger throat and open backbore, and it has done wonders for my playing. Not immediately, but it finally allowed me to make some actual progress, where convention would have just left me playing fundamentals until I were blue in the face with no results to show for it. The equipment change allowed me to play differently, which resulted in being able to practice differently, and that made all the difference. You could have given me a trunk of books and years of lessons, and the effects still wouldn't have made such a difference as that single mouthpiece switch did.
Why would you deny anyone who is struggling a similar experience, just to save them some money? Just encourage them to be financially smart about it, and let them sort out their own path. Which, you know, may just be different to your own, but that doesn't make it 'less'. |
Here's the funny thing... My experience, in it's specifics, is quite the opposite - and that only makes me agree more with the broader point.
For me, playing with large open throats and backbores was the norm in my early playing days - as a young cornet player raised on the Denis Wick bandwagon.
For a long time as a more developed player, by then more on Eb cornets, the received wisdom here would still favour at least large backbores even if using a Bach/Schilke type piece on a #27 or #26 throat (and in many cases being encouraged to consider bigger throats, shorter shanks, etc)...
But the real "eureka" moment that began a process of rapid improvement was doing the opposite, and going onto a #28 throat and a very tight backbore - and at this point attempts to go bigger just lose me stamina and projection for absolutely no gains at all (I find the same thing on trumpets - a #28 and tight backbore piece is much better for me).
And that brings me to why I ultimately agree with you - despite having completely opposite preferences - it's the ability to not be constrained by received wisdom and try something different that unlocked major improvements. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bach_again
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2481
Location: Northern Ireland
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
