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JSco Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 147
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:57 am Post subject: Bach 37 vs. Bach 37G |
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Hi All, I was curious for folks who have tried out playing a Bach Strad 37 with the standard yellow brass bell vs. the Bach 37G with gold brass bell setup. Did they feel/sound significantly different? Did you find either setup worked better for certain playing situations? I'm interested if the stereotypes (yellow brighter, gold warmer sound) about yellow vs. gold brass have proven true for those of you who have tried both. _________________ https://trumpetmadness.wordpress.com
https://www.youtube.com/@trumpet_madness |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 267
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Curious about this too.
I have a G bell converted to reversed leadpipe. My understanding is the G bell comes stock with standard configuration, and reversed leadpipe Strads with a lighter body, so normally if you have a reversed leadpipe, apparently it’s a yellow bell. |
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bebiperez Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 Posts: 28
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Although not specifically a Bach 37G, years ago I owned a Yamaha 8335RG with gold brass bell. I was able to compare it to the newer second gen model, the 8335RS with yellow brass bell. I preferred the newer model yellow brass bell over the gold brass. I felt it had a vibrant and more exciting sound, although not necessarily brighter. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2094 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Can’t comment on the 37 bell but on the 43, hope that’s OK The orchestra I play in has two trumpet geeks, me on first and another guy on second. He plays (among others) a regular 43 while I have my 43GH. Both are 180 ML, but I’m not sure about the year of his horn.
His sound is considerably brighter (part of this is due to him using a shallow Marcinkiewicz (model?) piece) but mine really is darker and warmer but also slightly more focused. I prefer mine but the regular 43 is a great horn, too.
While I have used mine for about 20 years for big band and medium sized pop/soul bands, it works well in the orchestra (though I do prefer my rotary now). My buddy’s regular 43 does stick out more (again partly due to his playing style and setup).
I should add that both are set up with a regular, non reversed leadpipe. His is a 25, mine is a 43. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, (Frate or Curry) |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 653
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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A Smith-Watkins study found that professional trombone players could not distinguish between bell materials in a blindfolded test, but when not blindfolded, all of them preferred the copper bell.
If you're comparing 2 different instruments, you are more likely to detect the differences in leadpipe venturi, mouthpiece gap, valve/slide tolerances, and even how clean the inside of the instrument is compared to the bell material.
https://smithwatkins.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/670cdef32c57e80e189bddaa749d1479-IOA-1986.pdf |
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Never with a Bach, but I experimented with comparing copper with brass bells for many years and have generally found that higher copper content in the bell produces warmer overtones, especially on a flugelhorn or cornet. It's not immediately obvious, but in a controlled environment you can hear a definite "ring" produced by a yellow brass bell that is absent with the copper bell.
You may never hear the differences between brass and copper on a trumpet, but there is a discernable difference in the way the two horns blow. You might call the copper belled trumpet a bit more resistant. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra |
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21trumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2007 Posts: 310 Location: So. California
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Blackwell wrote: | Never with a Bach, but I experimented with comparing copper with brass bells for many years and have generally found that higher copper content in the bell produces warmer overtones, especially on a flugelhorn or cornet. It's not immediately obvious, but in a controlled environment you can hear a definite "ring" produced by a yellow brass bell that is absent with the copper bell.
You may never hear the differences between brass and copper on a trumpet, but there is a discernable difference in the way the two horns blow. You might call the copper belled trumpet a bit more resistant. |
I tend to agree with Bill on this since if I remember correctly he was the first to have a wild thing trumpet with a copper bell. After that Flip started making that an option on his horns. Too bad they are no longer available.
As for me, I am pretty sure my Bach Commercial has a bronze bell but the silver plate does brighten it up some. _________________ Yamaha YTR-9335 NYS III
Bach Commercial - LT190SL1B
Yamaha YTR-9445 NYS-YS - C Trumpet
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper - Raw
Yamaha YCR2330 Cornet
Yamaha Custom Piccolo
Monette B4S S2 Mouthpiece |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2094 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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While I generally tend to agree with Goby that materials have less of an impact than instrument geometry (or players!), I won’t completely rule out materials effects, see my post above. It is, however, highly likely that the differences between the 43 and the 43GH described above are a combination between different leadpipe, different player, and different material (thickness) - for some reason, we have never swapped instruments to test the other horn (atypical trumpet players we seem to be ).
I did have the chance to playtest a 37 with a sterling bell and there is most definitely a difference between a regular 37 of the same setup and a sterling one. This thing could bury everything in front of you no problem - absolutely impressive volume and projection - but it felt very tight. Brutal horn and night and day compared to a run of the mill 37. There, material clearly had an impact. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, (Frate or Curry) |
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Miketpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 563 Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Gold brass bell horns tend to sound warmer up close to the player but don’t project as well as regular yellow brass bells. Scott Laskey always said to stay away from them for orchestral use.
Mike |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 915
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Didn't I read somewhere that Schilke claims that their Beryllium bells (actually a lightweight copper bell in its current form) projects better than a similar bell in yellow brass? |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 267
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:47 am Post subject: |
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If I was playing in the Philharmonic I might be concerned a gold bell Strad doesn’t project well enough.
A gold bell Strad 37 projects plenty. |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 653
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:54 am Post subject: |
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There is much more to music than strictly timbre of the instrument. Articulation, phrasing, relative intonation, and stylistic choices are all much more important to an ensemble than if your horn has a gold brass or yellow brass bell. |
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JSco Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 147
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 664 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Miketpt wrote: | Gold brass bell horns tend to sound warmer up close to the player but don’t project as well as regular yellow brass bells. Scott Laskey always said to stay away from them for orchestral use.
Mike |
I fully agree with Scott Laskey. Goldbrass bell horns are just nice in the practise room _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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gmaxe Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 406 Location: melbourne,australia
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have a bach37G that I purchased at ITG in 2018. It is a beautifull horn, it projects fine. It has a really nice sound at lower volumes that maybe can be warmer than a regular 37, but the difference is not huge. Bachs are funny creatures, they all play so differently from one another but what I liked about this horn compared to the others at ITG was how even and smooth it felt from note to note. You can hear me playing it here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y96dJplwaFA&ab_channel=GianniMarinucci
Always play Bachs before you buy them if you can! Good luck _________________ http://giannimarinucci.wixsite.com/giannimarinucci
https://giannimarinucci.bandcamp.com/
Bach37GS
AdamsF2
Bach 38 Cornet
Bach 2C |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 267
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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gmaxe wrote: | I have a bach37G that I purchased at ITG in 2018. It is a beautifull horn, it projects fine. It has a really nice sound at lower volumes that maybe can be warmer than a regular 37, but the difference is not huge. Bachs are funny creatures, they all play so differently from one another but what I liked about this horn compared to the others at ITG was how even and smooth it felt from note to note. You can hear me playing it here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y96dJplwaFA&ab_channel=GianniMarinucci
Always play Bachs before you buy them if you can! Good luck |
Yeah, hard to imagine Bach would mak a Strad meant for practice only. |
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Miketpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 563 Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | Miketpt wrote: | Gold brass bell horns tend to sound warmer up close to the player but don’t project as well as regular yellow brass bells. Scott Laskey always said to stay away from them for orchestral use.
Mike |
I fully agree with Scott Laskey. Goldbrass bell horns are just nice in the practise room |
That's not what he said and not what I was inferring either.
Nice try,
Mike |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1811
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Miketpt wrote: | Manuel de los Campos wrote: | Miketpt wrote: | Gold brass bell horns tend to sound warmer up close to the player but don’t project as well as regular yellow brass bells. Scott Laskey always said to stay away from them for orchestral use. |
I fully agree with Scott Laskey. Goldbrass bell horns are just nice in the practise room |
That's not what he said and not what I was inferring either. |
Genuine question: "don't project as well/stay away from them for orchestral use" sounds very much like "great for the practice room (small spaces), not great for a (large) hall," but then you disagree with Manuel. So what do you mean exactly? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3339 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: |
... "don't project as well/stay away from them for orchestral use" sounds very much like ... |
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Two separate claims / suggestions -
1) don't project as well - that is from Miketrpt
2) stay away ... for orchestral use - that is attributed to Laskey by Mike
If someone wants to 'extrapolate' further meaning from them, that is their prerogative - but it is not a 'logical construct' , basically just personal opinion. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Miketpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 563 Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | Miketpt wrote: | Manuel de los Campos wrote: | Miketpt wrote: | Gold brass bell horns tend to sound warmer up close to the player but don’t project as well as regular yellow brass bells. Scott Laskey always said to stay away from them for orchestral use. |
I fully agree with Scott Laskey. Goldbrass bell horns are just nice in the practise room |
That's not what he said and not what I was inferring either. |
Genuine question: "don't project as well/stay away from them for orchestral use" sounds very much like "great for the practice room (small spaces), not great for a (large) hall," but then you disagree with Manuel. So what do you mean exactly? |
All things being equal (other variable the same) yellow brass bells project better and with less effort than gold brass bells. So for the application for playing in a large orchestra, it's a better choice. The same could be said for playing with a loud pipe organ, which I know many did yesterday. I've experiienced this with both Bach and Yamaha Bb and C trumpets. What sounds better up close doesn't necessarily sound the best at the back of the hall. There are obviously excellent gold brass bell trumpets out there and I'm sure there is the occasional exception as far as projection goes. When Scott gave me this advice I was in college and starting my career path of playing in a full time orchestra. He used to say "if you want a dark sound, play the flugelhorn"
Mike |
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