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groover53
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Joined: 16 Mar 2024
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Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: comparing mouthpieces? |
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Is there a standard way of measuring trumpet/cornet mouthpieces, especially cup depth and shape? Comparing rims is pretty clear, but the only gauge I'm had for the cups is how it feels to my finger, which is not very objective. I have seen mention of calipers, but wouldn't know how to take cup measurements with them.
Also I know nothing about evaluating backbore.
I have 3 that I got with recent cornet purchases. An Olds 3, a Conn Harry Glantz, which seems to have a similar cup but a narrower cushion and a more rounded "break" edge, and a more vintage/ornate looking one that is just stamped CORNET, which seems to have the deepest and most V-shaped cup of the three.
I have just taken the cornet up again after a 50 year layoff
during which time I have been working professionally on guitar and other fretted instruments. I am enjoying it a lot, and want to quantify my knowledge so that I can better find what works best for me.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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GR has some articles about the various aspects of mouthpieces and the effects on playability/sound that may interest you: GR Mouthpiece School
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
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CaptPat
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023
Posts: 51
Location: Eastern NC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:04 am Post subject: Re: comparing mouthpieces? |
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| groover53 wrote: | | Is there a standard way of measuring trumpet/cornet mouthpieces, especially cup depth and shape? |
Nope. The site listed earlier provides a way to compare mouthpieces of different sizes and or manufacturers.
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I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it. |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:56 am Post subject: Re: comparing mouthpieces? |
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| groover53 wrote: | | Is there a standard way of measuring trumpet/cornet mouthpieces, especially cup depth and shape? Comparing rims is pretty clear, but the only gauge I'm had for the cups is how it feels to my finger, which is not very objective. I have seen mention of calipers, but wouldn't know how to take cup measurements with them. |
You'd think comparing rims was pretty simple... But it's not at all, really.
For starters, you don't just have different manufacturers measuring slightly differently.
Just for example - if you look at scans on the comparator link above, you'll see that a Marcinkiewicz Shew 1 is around Warburton 5-6 sort of size, depending on how far below the highpoint you measure... Warburton would tell you thats an inner diameter of 16.25 to 16.5mm, whilst Marcinkiewicz calls the Shew 1 a 16.810mm inner diameter.
This does not mean either of them is wrong, but it does mean you can't read inner diameters off charts from different manufacturers and assume they'll mean the same thing.
And as if that wasn't enough to make this more complicated than you might think...
Different players will perceive size differently on the same pieces depending on how sensitive they are to specific factors - some will feel the highpoint of the rim most prominently, some will feel the inner rim/bite , some will feel the outer rim diameter... And different combinations of these!
Then you've got the impact of the cup shape below the bite - what GR (linked above) calls the alpha angle... Depending on the player, this can affect how big the piece feels and lead to two pieces that measure the same feeling like they're different sizes altogether.
If it sounds complicated...
It is... But it also isn't.
It's not easy to get a decent understanding of exactly what you want and how varying factors effects you - but it's not difficult to trial and error and find something that'll work just fine.
| groover53 wrote: | | Also I know nothing about evaluating backbore. |
Most of the time you don't really need to, in all honesty.
Mostly the purpose is to balance out the other factors in a piece to deliver the desired intonation qualities - for a particular target usage or pitch of horn.
| groover53 wrote: | | I have 3 that I got with recent cornet purchases. An Olds 3, a Conn Harry Glantz, which seems to have a similar cup but a narrower cushion and a more rounded "break" edge, and a more vintage/ornate looking one that is just stamped CORNET, which seems to have the deepest and most V-shaped cup of the three. |
You could try to analyse exactly what the differences mean... But because everything affects everything and there's a lot of varied factors between those pieces, you probably wouldn't learn much from it.
The more important thing is... Does one work better for you than the others?
| groover53 wrote: | I have just taken the cornet up again after a 50 year layoff
during which time I have been working professionally on guitar and other fretted instruments. I am enjoying it a lot, and want to quantify my knowledge so that I can better find what works best for me.
Thanks |
Great to hear you're enjoying it!
How long does "just" having taken it back up constitute?
Because your chops are part of the mouthpiece-player-horn equation, it's difficult to quantify things in a way that means anything unless as much of that equation is as constant as reasonably possible.
What this means is that you realistically need your playing to be consistent from day to day (ie: you need to be "in practice" and not making rapid progress) in order for the effects of changing different factors about your mouthpiece choices to show consistent results that will tell you what you should (and should not) vary...
And IMHO that's the case regardless of whether you're going with a semi-informed trial and error approach or whether you try pieces which are incrementally different from each other such that you can figure out the effects of different variables on you (whether that's rim shapes, diameters, cup depths, alpha angles, throat sizes - whatever!).
Sorry, I've written an awful lot - hopefully something here is helpful! |
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abontrumpet
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TKSop
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html |
Just to be clear (for the OP and others not familiar with the comparator tool - I'm sure you already know this).
The scans shown here are of specific examples of mouthpieces that may not necessarily represent current production... And/or may even have undeclared modifications to them.
You'll notice that some models there are both higher definition vennture scans and older kanstul ones - and for the same model there are differences... Given the above this makes perfect sense.
This means whilst it's a useful tool, it's not foolproof cast-iron fact - and should be treated accordingly as a reference, not as gospel. |
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:46 am Post subject: |
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If you just want to compare several mouthpieces you own - without great precision - just Google "Depth and Angle Gauge". You should find something under $20. You might want to round off the corners of the gauge probe so it doesn't scratch the mouthpiece cup.
Any gauges you consider must have a probe that is a larger diameter or width than the largest mouthpiece throats you have. This will be your proprietary measurement - you will not be able to compare it to VennCad measurements on the Trumpet Mouthpiece Comparator - only mouthpieces you actually measure. It will be a measurement from the highest point on the mouthpiece rim to a point at the bottom of the cup - determined by the diameter of the gauge probe diameter. |
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groover53
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Joined: 16 Mar 2024
Posts: 4
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:43 am Post subject: Re: comparing mouthpieces? |
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| TKSop wrote: |
| groover53 wrote: | I have just taken the cornet up again after a 50 year layoff
during which time I have been working professionally on guitar and other fretted instruments. I am enjoying it a lot, and want to quantify my knowledge so that I can better find what works best for me.
Thanks |
Great to hear you're enjoying it!
How long does "just" having taken it back up constitute?
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"just" means I picked up a beater cornet in mid 2020, and have gone through phases of practicing more and less, but in the last couple of months am being much more consistent, have learned good warm-up exercises, and have actually played it a little on gigs lately (with mixed but tolerated results haha) reliable range still tops off about E top space of staff, and not yet comfortable in all keys, (which for guitar didn't require as many different fingerings), and certainly not ready to read off concert key charts in public!
and as my original post implied, I have within the last couple months picked up a couple of nice vintage horns in much better shape. 8~) |
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groover53
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Here's another way to go about it. - if I take my three mouthpieces (and horns) to a typical local brass/wind instrument store (ie not a shop geared specifically toward professionals) will they be able to help me with comparing them and what mouthpieces might work best for me with my individual horns? |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| groover53 wrote: | | Here's another way to go about it. - if I take my three mouthpieces (and horns) to a typical local brass/wind instrument store (ie not a shop geared specifically toward professionals) will they be able to help me with comparing them and what mouthpieces might work best for me with my individual horns? |
Doubtful. Many of those places are retailers and know virtually nothing. The last three shops I've been to were run by, in order, a tuba player, a trombone player and a euphonium player. Those shops sold trumpets and mouthpieces, but their personal experienced was limited. Heck, even most players have limited knowledge or experience.
But maybe you live in an area and can hit the lucky spin of the wheel.
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ldwoods
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Location: Lake Charles, LA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| groover53 wrote: | | Here's another way to go about it. - if I take my three mouthpieces (and horns) to a typical local brass/wind instrument store (ie not a shop geared specifically toward professionals) will they be able to help me with comparing them and what mouthpieces might work best for me with my individual horns? |
Short answer, no. Mpc selection is a very personal thing. For example, some accomplished players and teachers may love brand X, size Z and therefore adamantly endorse or encourage that for other players. However, brand X, size Z may be a completely unusable setup for another player.
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CaptPat
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Since you are just starting after a 50-year layoff I recommend getting one of the standard "starter" sizes, eg., Bach 7c to start on (5C or 3C seem to be good options as well). Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, and many others make something in this size, make sure you get an MP with a cornet shank. IMO it's a waste of time and money to embark on an MP safari when you aren't in practice. After you've developed some chops and have a reasonably stable embouchure (say 6 months) that may be the time to branch out to see if there might be something better. Keep in mind that you'll need to allow sufficient time to evaluate any new MP, many advise 3-4 weeks which gives you time to adapt.
A mouthpiece is not the "secret sauce" that will turn you into the next (insert famous trumpet player name here) overnight. There are lots of things to work on at this point in your comeback, the mouthpiece contributes very little to establishing and perfecting the necessary fundamental skills.
Best of luck
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Getzen Custom Series 3895
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I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it. |
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groover53
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:50 am Post subject: |
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CaptPat - I have been working on it intermittently since 2020 and consistently for at least the last 6 months.
I am not looking for a mouthpiece to magically transform my playing, just trying to learn about how different mouthpieces affect the tone and other variables, in order to take some of the guesswork out of things. For example I would like to find a mouthpiece that helps me get a brighter tone out of a particular horn I have.
I am starting with a new teacher next week and I expect he can help me a lot with this too.
Thanks for your feedback. |
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ldwoods
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| groover53 wrote: | CaptPat - I have been working on it intermittently since 2020 and consistently for at least the last 6 months.
I am not looking for a mouthpiece to magically transform my playing, just trying to learn about how different mouthpieces affect the tone and other variables, in order to take some of the guesswork out of things. For example I would like to find a mouthpiece that helps me get a brighter tone out of a particular horn I have.
I am starting with a new teacher next week and I expect he can help me a lot with this too.
Thanks for your feedback. |
There are websites and Youtube videos that discuss the fundamental truths or general guidelines in regards to which elements of mpc design affect playing\tone characteristics. I did not completely review the info at the following link, but is that what you are looking for?
https://www.schmittmusic.com/trumpet-shop/ask-about-trumpets/trumpet-mouthpiece-basics/
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