Bach 37 vs. Bach 37G

[abontrumpet]

[LarsHusum]

A colleague of mine asked Thomas Lubitz from Yamaha Atelier Hamburg, if Gold Brass was darker sounding.
Thomas replied yes.... and no. Depends on dynamic.
He said that gold brass was darker sounding until about a singe forte, if it's played louder than that, then it's brighter than yellow brass.
Yellow brass more so keeps the same tonal colour throughout the dynamic range of the instrument.

Some years ago I asked Will Spencer from Spencer Trumpets about gold brass/bronze, and he found gold brass plays more focused thorughout the dynamic range than yellow brass. So gold brass can really help keeping the tone centeret.

I find both these statements to be true. Gold brass is bright when played loud, and the tone does not spread/broaden as much when playing loud.
I've never found any problems with projection due to gold brass.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference. Both materials have clear advantages and disadvantages, so it all comes down to which compromise is best for your playing.
_________________
http://www.hornkapelle.dk

[trumpetsnack]

So I own two Bachs- one is a standard 37 and the other a lightweight 72g. Obviously this isn't a true apples to apples comparison, considering the two bell shapes. You'd likely be able to achieve a darker sound on the 72 just by virtue of it being a wider bell flare, regardless of the bell material. However I do notice that the gold brass bell definitely highlights the lower overtones in the sound much more than the yellow brass 37 bell. I wouldn't say it necessarily makes the sound "darker" as much as it offers a certain level of richness to the sound (at any dynamic level really). You can really hear the difference in the overtones that come through, especially in a particularly small space (like a practice room) when you A/B the horns. I remember when I purchased the 72 I played it against my own 37, as well as a Callichio with a red brass bell. Once again, 3 pretty different horns so a lot of variables, but I did notice the more copper that was in the bell, the more those lower overtones were pronounced. I ended up really liking the gold brass, as it was a pretty nice middle ground between the three horns. Pretty cool if you ask me!

I can't say I have noticed any issue with projection with the G bell, and I've used it in small jazz groups, musicals with lead trumpet-esque stuff (I'm not a lead player, but we all like to pretend), church gigs, pop stuff, pretty much everything shy of symphony orchestra with 0 issue with projection. It's never been a problem. I could see a potential issue blending with other horns in an orchestral trumpet section full of really picky/opinionated players, but it's not like we know anyone like that...

One last thing I have noticed that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is the difference in articulations. The gold brass seems to soften the articulation quite a bit- not necessarily in a bad way, but anytime I pick up a yellow brass horn my first reaction is "this thing's got some punch!" All that being said, I love love love my gold brass Bach and I imagine a 37g would be a sweet little horn to have!

[chef8489]

I currently play on a 19072 with a gold brass bell. I certainly do not have projection issues. In the past I have used yellow brass 72 bell as my preferred bach bells. I much prefer the sound I get from my 72g. I can get a wider range of color tones than I could with the yellow brass.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger

[gord-o]

I bought a 180s37G in the late 90's and played it for a few years. I think that gold brass isn't for me based on that horn and the Yamaha gold brass bell horns that I have played. I think somewhere on TH someone once said that "It's easier to get a bright horn to play dark than to get a dark horn to play bright", and I think that's true. My articulations were terrible on that horn and I should have stuck to a brass 37. That 37G was a dud for me.
_________________
Richard Hastings
Brass and Stringed Instrument Repair,
Popplers Music

[TheWindStar]

This might be more of a personal thing, but having blind tested both I found the 37G had a slightly more well-rounded tone, just felt a little fuller and yes, did fit the stereotype of being slightly warmer than the standard 37 with yellow brass bell.

I also found that I had slightly more control over the intricacies of the sound on the gold 37G but that might just be a quirk of my playing, or the build of that specific instrument!

Hope that helps.
_________________
“Nothing happens without any air. I mean, have a listen to it; it’s silent! It’s the air that creates and carries the sound through the trumpet.” - James Morrison

[mr oakmount]

I have a heavyweight gold brass bell Yamaha 6335HG.
When played softly it has this very elegant, noble tone that oozes class, perfect for symphony orchestra and concert band. If you hit the accelerator though, it develops a lazer beam intensity that will cut through any known substance, especially the ear drums of those sitting in front of you, but without losing core, focus or control. Think John Williams Star Wars or Superman.

What it does not have though is that easy brightness you hear on old West Coast studio recordings or the sizzle you want in a big band. I think that might be where "yellow" brass works better, so it's an Adams A5 or Conn 6B for Big Band, Latin and Western Film Scores (think Magnificent 7 or Ennio Morricone).

[chef8489]

[Brassnose]

Mr oakmount: interesting comparison of the Yamaha HG with the Conn 6B. While I have never played a 6335 (in any form, including the HG) I do have a 43GH Bach and find it very well suited for big band and commercial — yes, it needs a little more effort and (yes again) it does not have the piercing brilliance of a Schilke B6 (which I like also) — but it has power and focus and can really sing over a big band or rock band as well.

I still find it easier for use in big band or rock band settings than the 6B. The sound of the 6B is broader and „saturates“ faster — harder to play those ff and fff power lines than the Bach, but much more nimble than the Bach. I prefer the Conn for jazz and improvisation and the Bach for the tough stuff, including stuff that you seem to play on the Conn, like big band.

Goes to show again that everyone is different.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Winghorn]

My Mt. Vernon Bach trumpet with the gold brass bell has an achingly beautiful sound and is not lacking in power or projection. It plays very evenly and articulates cleanly.

I do not find it inferior in any way compared to the yellow brass models, and think players should not overly generalize the differences between yellow brass and gold brass. After all, there are other factors in how an instrument plays than just the bell material.

[mr oakmount]

chef8489 wrote:

"It doesn't have that sizzle because it's a heavy weight not because it's a gold brass. If it were a standard weight gold brass bell, it would easily be capable of that sizzle."

True that. One should always compare like with like ...
If the German language does not scare you off, here is an article where someone tried to fit the same Yamaha with a 2330 and a 4335G bell to get a valid comparison:

https://trumpetscout.de/der-schallbecher-und-sein-material-messing-vs-goldmessing/

Here is a play test on YouTube - no knowledge of German necessary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruG7syiym_g&t=6s

[Rhondo]

If you hear 6 different people playing the same model, bell, whatever, you’ll hear 6 different sounds.

The overriding factor is always the player.

[Destructo]

I have a 37 and have swapped with a colleague's 37G and we both sounded nicer on the 37G. The sound was just more pleasant somehow. The 37 just had a slight edge to it the the 37G didn't.

But also, it could just be those particular examples of each. Who knows what else was going on aside from the Bell given the apparent inconsistencies of Bach horns.

[Steve Hollahan]

Gold brass has a small amount of lead in it. This gives it the gold color.
A bit easier to work so it might influence formation of bell.
I believe it is slightly darker tone color.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

[AndyLott]

[Brassnose]

Gold brass (as per definition a Cu/Zn alloy) should not have lead in it unless someone uses lead to bend a bell and then doesn’t clean properly. The color of all metals (not only gold brass) is primarily due to the free electrons from the valence shell (electron gas) and their interaction, their number, and also the atomic weight of the atoms in the metal/alloy along with specifics of their band structure.

On top of that you’ll have effects that arise from quantum mechanical/relativistic effects such as the fact that the electrons move almost with the speed of light. This is (again) especially pronounced with heavy elements and (among others) is the reason why gold has has its unique color, why mercury is liquid at room temperature, and a few others.

Add to that the lone pair effect … well, never mind

PS: truth to be told, I find gold brass looks more like copper and not so much gold.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[AndyLott]

[Miketpt]

[Brassnose]

@andylott: that was actually meant to support your observation from a chemists point of view, but never mind.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier