Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:44 am Post subject: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
I posted this in the Callet forum but a member there suggested posting it here, so that's what I did.
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Hey everyone. first things first: Thank you to Mike P. from here who graciously and very generously gave me an incredible consult today which really was more of a lesson. I want to thank him and also explain why I am here.
Mike was able to identify my lip swelling problem. Turns out my Embouchure needed some tweaks. (don't worry I'm getting to Callet).
These new tweaks, basically changed me to, as Mike put it;
"a Quasi-beginner"
so, here I am at a cross roads.
The last week was horrendous for me as far as frustration levels. I don't want to go through that again. I came very close to quitting and I am resting my chops for a the next 5 days. (going to be wickedly difficult).
As I see it, I have two options.
Continue with my current embouchure set and go from there, or investigate TCE, since there are some things I really like about it(so far).
-----------------------
So why am I asking about Callet/TCE?
this last week in trying to seek answers I looked at every possible solution to see what I was doing wrong. I didn't know much about TCE, (and still don't hence here I am) but watched some vids on it. I liked the philosophy of it at the very least.
since I am basically having to go back and redo some things, I thought if I am going to have to go back a bit, why not explore Callets work to see what thats all about?
The playing I have heard of Bahb Civiletti sounds amazing. Truly one of the best sounding players i have ever heard, recording at least. THAT is the the sound I am aiming for.
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
I'm not saying they aren't out there, but the ones I saw were just recordings. As well no vids I saw, where players others claimed to be TCE players, were expounding or promoting the virtues of TCE??
There is a guy in the U.K who professes to be a TCE practitioner, and he sounds good in the short vids he does doing scales, but I still haven't heard him play any standard repertoire. Again I'm not saying he can't or doesn't, just that I haven't seen him do any.
what I do love is the sound of his attacks/articulation and his high register scales.
Bahb C's playing of the Natural trumpet is out of this world. at least in a recording.
So, I have a lot of questions.
1. what advantages would TCE/Callets system have over a standard or conventional embouchure?
2. Does it take the same amount of time to progress on TCE as a conventional system? given two students of the same ability, teeth structure, etc.
3. Other than Bahb, who else is a big name (world class player) proponent of TCE that can vouch for the system??
4. Is it more difficult to learn?
5. where would someone start if they were going to invest time and money into that system?
6. I wonder if any of the recordings mentioned may have been altered or done in sections?
7. What are the players thoughts here that have looked into it?
8. are there any seasoned players in this forum that could help me learn more about it?
9. Would I need to invest a lot of money into different equipment to do TCE?
10. are the claims made by TCE practitioners, legit? i.e. less air use, no overblowing, easier higher register etc??
11. I welcome all feedback from all players whether indicting TCE or promoting it. I want to get a fair assessment of it.
my current bias of it is, that it looks to me to be the same work, effort, and time, money etc. as any other system?
I can't say if it has any advantages or disadvantages to any other system, because I don't know and have never done it. basically I view all systems as just one particular way that could work well for a given player. pls correct me if that view is limited?
thanks!! _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Douglas James wrote:
3. Other than Bahb, who else is a big name (world class player) proponent of TCE that can vouch for the system??
I'm no Callet expert, so I'll leave most of this alone, but this one caught my attention. It's a natural enough question, but just as food for thought:
Is being a world class player really your ambition, and, if not, is that really the right measuring stick?
If I'm remembering correctly from what I've seen of your other posts (sorry if not!), you're coming back to playing after a long time away, which is great. More power to you! But, I think using a world class player as a measuring stick is the wrong way to look at this. I think the question should be "can this system produce playing results I'd be happy with in the amount of time/work I am prepared to give it?" I don't know the answer to that, but, particularly for a recreational player (not to say it doesn't also work for pros!), a model like Callet's where, as I understand it, you likely don't need to put in 4-5 hours a day to maintain your chops and stamina is probably a real advantage. Similarly, if you're not worried about perfectly matching the rest of your orchestral/big band section (who probably don't play that way), or pleasing a tenure committee, but just need to play all the notes with a good sound and dynamic control, so you can relax and enjoy the music you play, the number of famous people who do this doesn't necessarily matter.
What does matter, IMO, is: can this move you towards your goal?
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Steve A wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
3. Other than Bahb, who else is a big name (world class player) proponent of TCE that can vouch for the system??
I'm no Callet expert, so I'll leave most of this alone, but this one caught my attention. It's a natural enough question, but just as food for thought:
Is being a world class player really your ambition, and, if not, is that really the right measuring stick?
If I'm remembering correctly from what I've seen of your other posts (sorry if not!), you're coming back to playing after a long time away, which is great. More power to you! But, I think using a world class player as a measuring stick is the wrong way to look at this. I think the question should be "can this system produce playing results I'd be happy with in the amount of time/work I am prepared to give it?" I don't know the answer to that, but, particularly for a recreational player (not to say it doesn't also work for pros!), a model like Callet's where, as I understand it, you likely don't need to put in 4-5 hours a day to maintain your chops and stamina is probably a real advantage. Similarly, if you're not worried about perfectly matching the rest of your orchestral/big band section (who probably don't play that way), or pleasing a tenure committee, but just need to play all the notes with a good sound and dynamic control, so you can relax and enjoy the music you play, the number of famous people who do this doesn't necessarily matter.
What does matter, IMO, is: can this move you towards your goal?
Hi Steve. sure, that's a fair enough way to put it. maybe even better is, would it be just as good or better than any other system to forward or progress towards my goals? _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Douglas James wrote:
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
Listen to one of Callet's albums and see what you think, if you're left with the impression that his system made him a high level player. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Robert P wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
Listen to one of Callet's albums and see what you think, if you're left with the impression that his system made him a high level player.
Hi Robert, Where do I find his albums? Youtube? thanks! def wanna hear him play! _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Douglas James wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
Listen to one of Callet's albums and see what you think, if you're left with the impression that his system made him a high level player.
Hi Robert, Where do I find his albums? Youtube? thanks! def wanna hear him play!
Jerry never recorded to the best of my knowledge. There is a Youtube video floating around of him playing Clarke's Technical Studies with Ralph Salamone. It's fairly old, maybe late 80's. I never heard Jerry play a melody in our sessions. His power was quite impressive. I had lessons with Jerry and also with Bob. Bob did play some excerpts on Natural Trumpet during our lessons. He was still touring from time to time. Last time I saw him he was getting ready for a concert tour in Portugal.
Bob has a few cd's playing Natural Trumpet. Bob is nowhere near the high note player Jerry was. That said, he's a very fine player and a really nice guy.
I don't know if Bob is still touring or teaching. Last time I saw him was around 2011.
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:34 pm Post subject:
Go to YouTube and listen and watch examples of players using that method live. See what you think. I've done that before regarding many methods and that made the decision for me. _________________ Richard
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
peanuts56 wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
Listen to one of Callet's albums and see what you think, if you're left with the impression that his system made him a high level player.
Hi Robert, Where do I find his albums? Youtube? thanks! def wanna hear him play!
Jerry never recorded to the best of my knowledge. There is a Youtube video floating around of him playing Clarke's Technical Studies with Ralph Salamone. It's fairly old, maybe late 80's. I never heard Jerry play a melody in our sessions. His power was quite impressive. I had lessons with Jerry and also with Bob. Bob did play some excerpts on Natural Trumpet during our lessons. He was still touring from time to time. Last time I saw him he was getting ready for a concert tour in Portugal.
Bob has a few cd's playing Natural Trumpet. Bob is nowhere near the high note player Jerry was. That said, he's a very fine player and a really nice guy.
I don't know if Bob is still touring or teaching. Last time I saw him was around 2011.
thanks peanuts. I wonder if Bob is Still teaching? I did check out his website and many links are broken. his youtube vids are old too, from 2011 or so. . The last one I saw was him playing the Brandenburg Allegro assai on a Bb to prove it could be done. It was pretty good but not what I would have expected from a player of his calibre based on his recordings. Of course the Bb is not very secure in the clarino register and it sounded like you would expect on a Bb. Still impressive enough tho. Since you have experience in TCE, what are your thoughts on the method? It seems he changed his Embouchure, as he states in Vid 1 of masterchops? Another interesting thing I observed was it looks like his students are not using his embouchure but just adapting the "spit buzz" and tongue placement to thier Conventional embouchures? _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Douglas James wrote:
... maybe even better is, would it be just as good or better than any other system to forward or progress towards my goals?
--------------------------
My view is that most 'methods' have a very similar goal - getting the player to gain the skill to position and adjust their lips in the best way to produce the desired notes. And that 'position' depends on the individual player and physiology, but boils down to -
Being ABLE to vibrate at the desired pitch when a reasonable air flow is blown through the aperture.
As for what method works well for an individual, a lot depends on how well the ideas are expressed and whether the individual can understand and utilize the ideas. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Go to YouTube and listen and watch examples of players using that method live. See what you think. I've done that before regarding many methods and that made the decision for me.
Hey Richard, I looked pretty hard for players doing live playing using TCE but all that comes up in a search is instructional things from two or three main TCE channels that have almost no live playing. If its not too much trouble can you link a couple vids here for me to watch? _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:00 pm Post subject:
Just some random thoughts.
Herb Smith of the Rochester Philharmonic is a Callet student and plays Callet trumpets and mouthpieces. He also plays jazz.
Peter Masseurs, formerly of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, took some lessons with Callet.
Rich Colquhoun, a British player. Studied either with Callet or Civiletti. I believe he is primarily a legit player.
I don't think you would need any special equipment to play a Callet embouchure. However, you might have an easier time with one of the Callet Super Chops mouthpieces.
I think it would be crucial to get at least a few lessons from someone intimate with this embouchure to get started right and don't have to end up fixing anything.
Also, I think your first instincts were correct to post on the Callet forum.
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:01 pm Post subject:
Douglas James wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Go to YouTube and listen and watch examples of players using that method live. See what you think. I've done that before regarding many methods and that made the decision for me.
Hey Richard, I looked pretty hard for players doing live playing using TCE but all that comes up in a search is instructional things from two or three main TCE channels that have almost no live playing. If its not too much trouble can you link a couple vids here for me to watch?
Herb Smith of the Rochester Philharmonic is a Callet student and plays Callet trumpets and mouthpieces. He also plays jazz.
Peter Masseurs, formerly of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, took some lessons with Callet.
Rich Colquhoun, a British player. Studied either with Callet or Civiletti. I believe he is primarily a legit player.
I don't think you would need any special equipment to play a Callet embouchure. However, you might have an easier time with one of the Callet Super Chops mouthpieces.
I think it would be crucial to get at least a few lessons from someone intimate with this embouchure to get started right and don't have to end up fixing anything.
Also, I think your first instincts were correct to post on the Callet forum.
Just my two cents.
Good luck.
hey Jerry,. thanks! Herb Smith was one of the guys I wasn't sure of, if he endorsed TCE, turns out, as I found out about an hour ago, that he is on the part 2 of the Master Superchops series. I gotta say that his playing the Arban Study #1 on his channel is absolutely the best I have ever heard. That sound and articulation is amazing, and the guy should be playing those as a soloist...forget the Rochester Symphony. the others you mentioned Ill have to look up. But would you say they are protégé's of Callet or just had a couple lessons from him and they play with standard techniques? _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Go to YouTube and listen and watch examples of players using that method live. See what you think. I've done that before regarding many methods and that made the decision for me.
Hey Richard, I looked pretty hard for players doing live playing using TCE but all that comes up in a search is instructional things from two or three main TCE channels that have almost no live playing. If its not too much trouble can you link a couple vids here for me to watch?
Richard III right! So this guy i have watched, and he has an impressive sound. Ill have a look and see if he has any actual pieces he plays from beginning to end. _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Should I come over to the (Callet) Dark side?
Douglas James wrote:
peanuts56 wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
my only problem is I have not seen any vids of anyone who claims to be a Callet student, playing at high levels?
Listen to one of Callet's albums and see what you think, if you're left with the impression that his system made him a high level player.
Hi Robert, Where do I find his albums? Youtube? thanks! def wanna hear him play!
Jerry never recorded to the best of my knowledge. There is a Youtube video floating around of him playing Clarke's Technical Studies with Ralph Salamone. It's fairly old, maybe late 80's. I never heard Jerry play a melody in our sessions. His power was quite impressive. I had lessons with Jerry and also with Bob. Bob did play some excerpts on Natural Trumpet during our lessons. He was still touring from time to time. Last time I saw him he was getting ready for a concert tour in Portugal.
Bob has a few cd's playing Natural Trumpet. Bob is nowhere near the high note player Jerry was. That said, he's a very fine player and a really nice guy.
I don't know if Bob is still touring or teaching. Last time I saw him was around 2011.
thanks peanuts. I wonder if Bob is Still teaching? I did check out his website and many links are broken. his youtube vids are old too, from 2011 or so. . The last one I saw was him playing the Brandenburg Allegro assai on a Bb to prove it could be done. It was pretty good but not what I would have expected from a player of his calibre based on his recordings. Of course the Bb is not very secure in the clarino register and it sounded like you would expect on a Bb. Still impressive enough tho. Since you have experience in TCE, what are your thoughts on the method? It seems he changed his Embouchure, as he states in Vid 1 of masterchops? Another interesting thing I observed was it looks like his students are not using his embouchure but just adapting the "spit buzz" and tongue placement to thier Conventional embouchures?
I tended to play more like the Trumpet Yoga years when Jerry taught that method. My biggest improvement was made when I began bunching my chin and tonguing between my teeth again. It's similar to The Balanced Embouchere by Jeff Smiley. I don't use too much roll in or out. I don't play too much these days since retiring. We travel quite a bit since I retired. Not much work in my area.
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:54 pm Post subject: conclusion and takeaway
Ok so I think that after literally 5 weeks + of really intense research, looking at multiple methods, embouchure styles, from Farkas to Callet, There is only one thing I can really say I understand and that is, there is no such thing as a
" Magic or Golden embouchure"
All of these methods require dedication and hard work and practice.
I am seeing now that it doesn't matter too much what embouchure we form, the constant is always...time.
With the Callet approach I am seeing that many of the players had embouchure troubles and then found a way to overcome them using his strategy, Nothing wrong with that.
I think what matters is, when we resonate with a particular system, that we follow that path. Since to me, the Joy MUST be in the journey. not the destination.
Do I think I will be a Callet convert? Well iDK right now.
I have a few days to "not" play...which is going to be a discipline in and of itself for me with the horn sitting close to me everyday. calling for it to be played. I think I'm leaning to just working with what I have. I haven't seen anything with Callet's students that would make any of them stand out or be above other systems. Bob 's playing is beautiful, yet so is Maurice Andre's. and many others. I like the Callet system. I like the strong articulation. But again I have seen other players have a different articulation that is just as beautiful such as Andre's breath accents at the end of his phrases . Or Wynton's focussed high register. All ways of playing are equally valid, objectively. There is no wrong or right way. There is only the way that suits us as players. each person is unique, and thus, no shoe will fit everyone, and i like that we have great teachers and great influencers on trumpet to guide us to be better players. _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 220 Location: California
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: conclusion and takeaway
Douglas James wrote:
I have a few days to "not" play...which is going to be a discipline in and of itself for me with the horn sitting close to me everyday. calling for it to be played.
Put it in its case and lock the case in the closet? ; )
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: conclusion and takeaway
Rhondo wrote:
Douglas James wrote:
I have a few days to "not" play...which is going to be a discipline in and of itself for me with the horn sitting close to me everyday. calling for it to be played.
Put it in its case and lock the case in the closet? ; )
maybe put it in a time delay vault might work.? 🤣🤣 _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet
Quoting a famous European sitcom televisions seriesAllo allo: "listen I will say this only once": Try the BE instead. Up to date, well structured easy to follow. Incorporating elements of Calletian ideas and really ingeniously laid out. Which might take a while to understand while getting rid of your preconceived ideas.
But as all serious methods requiring a real dedication and effort. You´ll be amazed!
Ain´t no short cuts!!
( https://www.trumpetteacher.net/ ) _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 722 Location: Hereford, UK
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:09 am Post subject:
You're very welcome Doug - I'm glad you got so much out of the session and it was a really rewarding one for me as a teacher.
Of all the various 'systems' associated with individual teachers, TCE is the one I'm most able to say anything meaningful about so I'll definitely be in touch with some thoughts when I have time next week. Very briefly - I have no reason to strongly advise against it but I lean towards thinking it wouldn't be the most promising or straightforward way for you to go with your playing.
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