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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:12 am Post subject: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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We all know in the old days, mouthpieces weren't consistent because they used a cutting tool that wore out until replaced. So the degrees of wear resulted in inconsistent products.
Then they got smart and hired Robbie the Robot who constantly adjusted a very fine tool to produce a perfectly uniform product, piece after piece.
When did that begin? Small period after the CORP?
Thanks _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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bebiperez Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 Posts: 28
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Last month I purchased a brand new Bach 1.5C from WWBW. It wobbled on all my trumpets. I bought a second one and the same problem. I ended returning both. FWIW I have two Bach Symphonic mouthpieces that fit perfectly on all the receivers.
Last edited by bebiperez on Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2200 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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those were made by Wobbly the Wobot _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2351 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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When they, like everyone else, got their CNC machines up and running. I'm pretty sure that there have been some changes to the design of what is being made - i.e. changed to a more generally liked 3C design.
I've had more issues with plating - I recently picked up a "duplicate" of my main piece and found the throat noticeable different in size - a little extra silver in the throat had closed it of a tick. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | When they, like everyone else, got their CNC machines up and running. |
Is that really supposed to be an answer? _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1968 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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homebilly wrote: | those were made by Wobbly the Wobot |
Oh, that wascally wobot!
I'd have to guess that the CNC period started on or after the "Large Letter" period (1997-2003).
This thread seems to confirm it (see the first post by Martin):
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=342636 _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1482 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Wobot ! You wascal you!
However - the other day I was forced to bowwow, I mean borrow a VB 1 1/4 C from my section buddy. He had two, one of them as old as my own old one (at home), from 1970 - the other one 2-3 years old. They were absolutely totally different The later one stuffy lacking that big crisp sound which was possible with the old one.
So it´s a good question. Might be as Zaferis is suggesting, adaptation to newer demands/trends thus not so much malfunctioning wobots. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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gord-o Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 280 Location: Sioux Falls, SD
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Halflip's response is spot on. I went on a factory tour of the Bach factory in 1997 and they were making a lot 7C pieces that day on two long CNC machines. The operator would load a long bar of brass in the machine, push the go button, and the machine would make the piece. There was a cart with racks of finished mouthpieces ready to go to plating. I should have asked if they were making models other than the 7C, but I remember that they were reluctant to answer some of the questions I had asked earlier. They did say those machines were new, and they were proud of them, so I think that late 1990's 'large letter' answer is correct. _________________ Richard Hastings
Brass and Stringed Instrument Repair,
Popplers Music |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1812
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:10 am Post subject: Re: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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As of 2022, consistency hadn't been achieved. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2351 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:29 am Post subject: |
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JetJaguar wrote: | zaferis wrote: | When they, like everyone else, got their CNC machines up and running. |
Is that really supposed to be an answer? |
Yes, I don't know the date - I'm sure could be looked up somewhere.. but before CNC controlled lathing, as the tools wore the product changed. If you bought a mouthpiece at the beginning of the tools life vs. one at the end of it's life the mouthpieces would be different - slightly but evident.
Now machines, computer controlled cut/grind/lathe to a very specific measurement. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2351 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:34 am Post subject: Re: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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abontrumpet wrote: | As of 2022, consistency hadn't been achieved. |
I'll disagree... the issue is not in manufacturing but in stock. It's hard to know if you're buying a mouthpiece that was made this year vs. one that has been in the store since 2005, 1995.. etc
And like any production run there are updates "improvement" made periodically - If you buy a mouthpiece today from one store and you expect it to be exactly what you bought 10 years ago in a different place is expecting a lot, and not an issue of manufacturing QC. (and there are counterfeits in the market) _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 139
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:41 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Now machines, computer controlled cut/grind/lathe to a very specific measurement. |
Apparently, compensating the tool offset for tool wear, temperature, and deflection due to pressure is a thing, but it seems to require attention from the operator. I would have thought by now that offset compensation would be automatic, where the CNC machine sets up a feedback loop from finished work piece to carriage. (shrug) But I'm not a machinist.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/is-compensating-for-tool-wear-a-thing.416475/ _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 139
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:49 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Yes, I don't know the date - I'm sure could be looked up somewhere.. |
Dad, the tool-and-die man, was trained on this Moog (Bill Moog, cousin of Robert Moog) in 1975. It ran on punched paper tape. I can't say when Bach adopted the technology, but this was early CNC in the field, FWIW.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/moog2.jpg _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1812
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 6:39 am Post subject: Re: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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zaferis wrote: | I'll disagree... the issue is not in manufacturing but in stock. |
We can agree to disagree. I'm not saying that two mouthpieces of the same stock were completely different, but they were different. CNC is only one part of the equation here. But yes, MUCH more consistent once CNC was introduced, but still inconsistent. Not sure what the new standards are, but this was my experience up till 2022. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 870 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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abontrumpet wrote: | zaferis wrote: | I'll disagree... the issue is not in manufacturing but in stock. |
We can agree to disagree. I'm not saying that two mouthpieces of the same stock were completely different, but they were different. CNC is only one part of the equation here. But yes, MUCH more consistent once CNC was introduced, but still inconsistent. Not sure what the new standards are, but this was my experience up till 2022. |
You are more inconsistent from day to day than a Bach mouthpiece and people that say they can tell a difference without proper measuring equiptment are full of it. 99% of the time it's placebo because that's what they are expecting. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1812
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:32 am Post subject: Re: When did Bach mouthpieces become consistent? |
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chef8489 wrote: | people that say they can tell a difference without proper measuring equiptment are full of it. 99% of the time it's placebo because that's what they are expecting. |
Big, if true |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Asking when Bach became consistent is like asking you when did you stop beating your wife. _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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CaptPat Regular Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 64 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:16 am Post subject: |
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I don’t think that recent Bach offerings are more or less consistent than mass produced MP’s from other manufacturers, like Yamaha. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 180S37
Getzen Custom Series 3895
_______________________________________
I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it. |
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jazz50's Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 52 Location: Athens, Greece
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:59 am Post subject: |
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A couple of years ago I purchased a Symphonic 1C 24/24 that I really liked.
So I decided to get a second one. Eventually I ended up with 4 different mouthpieces, all Symphonic 1C’s 24/24. Bach and consistency are not friends. But maybe the fact that all their pieces are different, is the reason so many people find one that works for them. Just ONE though. |
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