What's so special about shepherds crook cornets?

[rhatheway]

In several recent forums I've read comments from people talking about their shepherds crook cornets. From what I know (which isn't much, I admit) that's a style of horn that was made a long time ago (late 1800s?) and then was abandoned in favor of the more traditional cornet design that we all know today.

My question is, is there a sound or tonal difference that made those horns so special, or did they maybe project more, or their sound cuts through the other instruments better for some reason? Did the shepherds crook design of the pipe do something to the tone, or is there some other reason that made those horns so special? Or is it really just cosmetics and those old horns are unique because there's not too many of them around now and they just look cool?

Curious minds want to know...
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[huntman10]

Briefly, the difference between trumpets, Cornets, and flugelhorns boils down to degrees of "conicality", the fraction of tubing that is conical vs cylindrical, and the extent of the conical taper. The shepherds crook bell allows for a wider radius bend in the more conical bell, giving the emphasis to the lower partials, meaning a darker tone, if all the other factors are designed correctly.

There has been a big resurgence in Shepherds crook bells in the last 30 to 40 years in the US companies. The older cornet styles you are used to were really compromises for Cornets to be less "specialized" as distinctly different from trumpets.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[kehaulani]

A by-product of a shepherd-crook cornet is that the crook allows you to bring the horn closer to your face. Can enhance the horn balance a bit and some feel they can hear their horn more immediately. Up here rather than out there.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[stuartissimo]

There have been heated debates on TrumpetHerald about whether the shepherd crook shape affects the sound of the cornet or not. Afaik a concensus hasn’t been reached. However, most agree that there are effectively 2 types of cornet; one type is mostly aimed at playing ‘brassband style music’ and that type often comes with a shepherd’s crook shape (the other type is often referred to as ‘long’ or ‘American’ cornet and is more often used for small group jazz settings because it has a more trumpet-like sound). The shape is thus at least an indication of the kind of sound the cornet is aimed to be used for, and possibly part of the reason it has that sound.

At least, that’s how I understand it.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[iiipopes]

[Dale Proctor]

Most modern shepherd’s crook cornets have a more mellow sound than “American wrap” cornets, because people expect them to sound that way and the manufacturers oblige. More bends in the tubing may take a bit of the edge off the tone, but the main factor is how conical the tubing and the bell are. A cornet that starts out with a smaller leadpipe entrance and tapers to a larger bore (even tapering through the tuning slide) all the way to the valve block is more conical than one that doesn’t. Add a bell with a faster taper, and you have the main ingredients for a mellow cornet. Brace placement and the metals used can also affect the characteristics of a good cornet.

Many, if not most “American wrap” cornets aren’t quite as conical as their shepherd’s crook counterparts, and have a more trumpet-like bell taper. Of course, mouthpiece selection and individual embouchures are a variable that can greatly affect the sound from any cornet (or trumpet).
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Halflip]

I find that the shepherd's crook comforts me (along with thy rod and thy staff).
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[etc-etc]

The shepherd's crook is a nod/throwback to an earlier style of cornet wrap that used Stölzel piston valves. Stölzel valves, invented in 1800s, had one port at the bottom and two switchable ports on the side. The section of tubing going to the bell from first valve bottom port had to be wrapped 270° around, resembling a shepherd's crook.

Stölzel valves had a bore step at the boundary between the piston / casing and a 90° or 135° turn within the piston, making them much stuffer than the later invented and still currently used Périnet valves.

Other than a "pretty" shape and the ability to collect water "in the dip" the shepherd crook is not contributing much to the sound. Unless, of course, you listen with your eyes.

[Louise Finch]

[spitvalve]

I picked up a mid-1960s Olds Ambassador cornet, had some dents removed, and gave it to my son. I bought a 1969 Getzen Capri for myself.

The straight-bell Olds actually has a darker sound than the shepherd's crook Getzen. But the Getzen looks cooler.
_________________
Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[JWG]

To correct some misstatements above, Cornets are not more conical than trumpets . . . surveys of hundreds of instruments have put that myth to bed and confirmed that trumpets have a more conical taper due to single wrap designs having a longer bell tail that allows for a more conical design.

Cornets have a double wrap while trumpets have a single wrap, and this design feature accounts for their mellower, darker timbre.

The Shepard's crook design gives Cornets even more radius bends which further darkens their sound.

Imagine the fundamental tone frequency and accompanying overtone frequencies that comprise any standing sound wave. Those frequencies vibrate within the air molecules in one's horn, just as pond water vibrates across the expanse of the pond when disturbed. Unlike woodwinds, brass instruments constrain their standing waves within the confines of the brass tubing itself.

You can imagine every radius bend as lengthening the lower frequency tones around the outside of the radius and compressing the higher frequency tones along the inside radius. Bends in brass tubing extenuate lower frequencies and extinguish and/or dampen higher frequencies.

Since French horns and cornets wrap at least twice, they have a mellower sound than trumpets that wrap only once.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

[etc-etc]

[iiipopes]

Has anybody bothered to measure the bell throats and the flares? As was discussed earlier, The overall profile of the bell can determine the tone more than the wrap. Even Bach on their trumpet bells discusses the differences between all of their bells, even when using the same valve block, or at least the two most common blocks, ML .459 & L .462: https://bachloyalist.com/bach-trumpets-bells/#google_vignette .

Likewise Schilke had different bells to get different tones out of a trumpet: https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Bells_slides_and_finish.html

So did Callichio and others. I have played an Ambassador. Its .468 bore and a little wider taper contribute to its mellowness, even though being a straight bell.

To my eyes, some of the Besson Sovereign cornets of a few years ago had, (I never got to try one) narrow taper with quick flare bells and are definitely brighter in tone than, for example, my 921 Globe Stamp. And the 921 is noticably wider in the throat than my Bach CR300 (modded to look like a 181L). The difference in tone is the difference between generally accepted brass band tone and pre-WWII American concert band tone. (before trumpets took over concert band - a debate for another day)

We've hashed the wrap argument enough. Let's see some actual data of bell flares, throat diameters measured at a point, say, @ 2 1/2 inches/64 centimeters upstream from the rim, and how that data fits into subjective tonal assessment. Even Bach, as Lou posted, has a different bell taper and flare for the 181 compared to the 184, even using the same valve block and leadpipe. The tonal differences are very apparent.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[kehaulani]

Cornets are not (or should not be), superfluous. I once had a professional concert band and decided to use cornet/trumpet sections for where they are specified in the music.

The trumpeters actually took a road trip to a music store to get the most appropriate (shepherd-crook) cornets. Once I integrated them into the band, you could definitely tell the difference.

I was listening to a playback of that band and my wife walked into the room and said, "I can always tell when I'm listening to your band. It's just warmer".
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[stuartissimo]

Sometimes I wonder what instrument builders must think when they’d read discussions like these.

My take on the whole thing is that it’s probably a combination of things that lead to the resultant sound; including not only physical stuff like wrap, bracings, mouthpiece, valve block position and distribution/total amount of conality, but also the mental aspects of having the bell closer to the ear and the player’s expectations translating into their sound concept.

It’s no doubt perfectly possible to make bright sounding shepherd’s crook or a darker/warmer sounding long cornet. Even if every little change adds 1% to the whole, it’s probably combined that they make a big difference.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[iiipopes]

[Halflip]

[rhatheway]

[rhatheway]