Trying to Make a Duplicate of Herseth's C Trumpet

[tomba51]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2024/04/18/trumpet-making-instrument-manufacturer-conn-selmer-chicago-symphony-orchestra-music
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Tom Barreca

[ldwoods]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.
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Larry Woods
LDWoods

[Richard1]

This was a very interesting article, Tom.
Thanks for posting it.

I hope that all is well with you and your family.

Dick Feingold
Dingmans Ferry PA

[mr oakmount]

Thanks for sharing this article. The outcome will be interesting: Will Bach win back those who play the Yamaha Chicago or NY models with a clone of their 1955 model?

But here comes the real question: Any chance of cloning Herseth's chops as well?

[some_blue]

Fascinating! Thanks for posting.

[yourbrass]

"The silver bracing eventually was later removed from Herseth’s mouth and flattened into two patches affixed to the bottom of his trumpet bell, with help from Vincent Bach.

“They worked together,” Batallán said. “It has some additional patches in certain places that no other horn in the world has. Those two pieces are the two patches I have on my bell. He wanted to protect the bell and added some weight. Some extra material makes the sound warmer and more centered.”
(Chicago Sun-Times 4-19-24)

This is really interesting, as patches are known to alter tone quality, intonation, etc. It's no wonder the horn plays differently from others, besides normal variation between instruments.

I made a one-time donation to this newspaper for this article - newspapers are dying and good journalism is expensive.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[daDavemeister]

Does anybody have a timeframe for when these will come out? This sounds amazing
_________________
Dave Lindgren of Sonoma, Ca
Bach 37 Bb, Yamaha Malone 6445HII C, Schilke P5-4, Schilke E3L-4, Dotzauer Rotary C, Benge 8Z cornet, eBay flugel

[OldSchoolEuph]

Conn-Selmer has done this before - and at a time when it was a more viable proposition than today, it proved to be less than 100% possible.

http://www.trompete.com.pt/budherseth.html

So here's the issues with recreating something from that long ago:
1) The basic valve block wrap changed with the advent of the 180 in 1962. Modern parts are all made to the newer standards.
2) Lead solder was used then - and those pesky physical laws of the universe just wont let you expect the same performance of the system with silver based solder.
3) The original had a VB style French bead. The modern bead is formed differently - even the half-round one.
4) The bells were hand made by craftsmen with certain learned patterns to their work. As hydroforming is over a quarter century old practice at Bach now, while hand work can be learned, the specific working and annealing practices of Mt Vernon are lost to history. Yes , a modern bell is a more consistent, and remarkably good bell - not "better" or "worse" - it is different.
5) At the risk of being redundant, hand forming a bell is like kneading dough. It alters the molecular structure in combination with many more annealing cycles. That can be equaled (depending on what works for you as a player), but not replicated, today.
6) The trim parts, which apply specific mass at specific points can be replicated - but will they be.
7) THIS IS THE BIG ONE: The alloy used in the Chicago C trumpets was not the norm, and is not 70/30 yellow brass. While I imagine Tedd left Roy's info on what that alloy is for the future, the practical reality is that getting a brass foundry to make 0.020" sheet brass in that alloy today for a few dozen, or a few hundred, or even a few thousand horns is not economically viable. They will want a contract for enough to make 100,000 bells plus. It could not be done last time, and it cannot be done today.

Trying to clone the past is a mistake. We know more now about design than we did then. Taking that knowledge, gleaned in large part from history, and designing the best modern methods and materials supports will produce a superior instrument. And that is what the goal should be - not a fake Chicago Bach.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[yourbrass]

While I agree with many of Ron's points, I don't think the challenge of this project should abandoned. If the particular instrument has a unique sound, why not try and duplicate it, or at least get somewhere near to it?

One thing that my experience has taught me about patches being soldered to brass instruments is that they will change sound and intonation in various ways. I would be willing to bet that Mssrs. Herseth and Bach tried the patches in several places after play testing to get it right. The article referred to patches in "places that no other horn in the world has." That's a broad assertion, and I wonder where those places are (!)
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[abontrumpet]