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Douglas James
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 Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:29 pm Post subject: I was taught the wrong Embouchure!!? |
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I posted here instead of the Callet forum since there is so much to talk about....
I get that this(the above headline) is a bold statement, especially since I have only had a few days of delving into this, but Keep in mind I have been trying to solve a lip swelling issue since day 1 and I have been playing for over 4 years. I'm still not sure I want to go on. I'll get to that.
Those who have read my posts know that I'm struggling with severe lip swelling.
I have looked at many methods that might be helpful. I have had many teachers all unable to tell me what exactly I could do to stop that problem.
It happens no matter what register I play in, or for how long, the onset of the swelling of my upper lip lobe happens within 5 minutes. so after 5 weeks of experience more frustration, I decided to pack it in. its not worth the struggle. Nothing I have tried so far has worked...
until this week.
On Tuesday evening this week, I started reading the Callet material.
I was actually doing it for fun and curiosity, because it looked so unorthodox and went against everything I had been taught. But I kept at it, and started learning it. At first it was very difficult. I squawked some notes out. then I had an "aha" moment"
"hmmm. it's the tongue that does the controlling of the air!! "
So I practiced it. As usual I thought the next day I would have a lip lobe the size of a cherry.
but the next day incredibly they were fine. This was the first time ever that I played for over an hour the night before and I could actually pop a good loud bright note out the following day.
I continued to practice it. I looked up and read everything I could on the method. I DL'ed all the material I could find. watched the first "master Superchops" dvd on YT. over and over to make sure I was doing things correctly.
I played a good hour or two in the lower to medium register the following day.
It didn't sound great as far as pure tone(it did get much better by Friday) but I WAS getting that loud focussed responsive and articulated sound I have heard mentioned and heard played.
It really is a beautiful percussive articulation. like hammering the bell. I had never gotten such an open and powerful sound. it was so powerful that the mute I was using hardly worked at all. nothing like the timid, Arban articulation I had been using.
I was using little air and I was not tiring. the SPIT BUZZ was the catalyst. I couldn't play as high as normal, but I got a ringing open and powerful sound. even with a practice mute. it all just clicked.
So, It seems my lips do NOT swell using that method. This is ground-breaking for me not having to worry about my lip swelling.
it also answered a question:
is the cause of players lip swelling to due to the Farkas style embouchure setting where two lips are pursed to produce a vibration???
It turns out. yes... at least in my case. And likely I would bet most others too.
I realized that
1. The massive and powerful air flow that needed to produce a buzz in all registers, and the stress it causes on the lips against each other to form an aperture, is the likely cause of lip swelling for trumpets players who have this issue and who rely on a classic or Arban type embouchure.
this has lead me to conclude(at least for me, and I would be willing to bet on most players) that the way we are taught to play in a mainstream way is absolutely incorrect.
It is incredibly inefficient. we are pushing through the lips enormous amounts of air.
That air is mostly pointless and excessive but necessary for the classic lip to lip embouchure.
The vibrations created probably causes the lips to be battered, for lack of a better term. This in turn causes lip damage at the micro level. thus the lip tries to protect itself by swelling. a "cushion" to protect it from any further damage. therefore the lips cannot vibrate. it has nothing to do with the CHOPS being weakened or overworked or tired, at all!
I gained huge endurance, sound, and in time i suspect range too.
because of the way the lips buzz using the Callet/tce way, and due to the Spit buzz attack. The attack is what makes it so efficient.
But I realize that Callet changed his embouchure a lot.
I got in touch with Ralph Salamone and he sent me his book. (Thanks Ralph if you are reading this Ill get in touch with you about all this) and I watched the TCE method on Bahbs channel.
I also sent Bahb an email but he has not responded yet.
my problem now is:
For me at least, I'm not sure where to go from here.
I have many questions that aren't answered for me yet about this/these methods.
I am not willing to experiment with another embouchure change.
I am not willing to go down a road and then have failure again.
The biggest problem is confusion over what embouchure even in the TCE/Callet world I should use.??
The confusion lies in that Callet changed his own embouchure over the years something like three times??
so why wasn't he sticking with one? did he experience failure with it? why did he need to upgrade?
then Ralph Salamone has his version of it, which i can't disclose the details of because I feel that is proprietary and anyone can get his book for like 10.00 bucks. well worth it btw.
And...there the Bahb Civilette way. which to what I can figure out, uses his tongue between his teeth but not arched like Callet, and either almost or fully replaces his bottom lip with the tongue. again this gets confusing??
the BE way unless it uses a Callet type embouchure is out. lip to lip buzzing does not work for me. my lips swell.
anyway,
I need to know things like...how to do proper slurs, how to play softly, how to play subtly, how to achieve range, etc etc. so I'm at a standstill.
I think Ill just go back to recorder. It is far less confusing far less frustrating, and I can play for hours on it.
I'm willing to get lessons, but so far no one has returned my emails (except Ralph) and i would need some dedicated instruction on a proper method that suits my lips. thanks for reading.
your comments are fully appreciated.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It is incredibly inefficient. we are pushing through the lips enormous amounts of air.
That air is mostly pointless and excessive but necessary for the classic lip to lip embouchure. |
Air flow is not arbitrarily great or small. A certain flow is required even for 100 percent efficiency to meet the acoustical requirements of tone. TCE typical claims of "very little" air can be easily dismissed.
Conventional embouchures can and ARE used by the vast majority of good aesthetically musical players.
You may have a severe roll-out with your native embouchure since you started on French horn. Likely putting undue stress on the vermillion.
You can correct that with a more reasonable embouchure without resorting to TCE.
Personally, I find that holding the tongue in that position requires an unacceptable amount of effort, and tension in the jaw. Also, it makes usable and musical articulation, including multiple tonging, impossible. |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | It is incredibly inefficient. we are pushing through the lips enormous amounts of air.
That air is mostly pointless and excessive but necessary for the classic lip to lip embouchure. |
Air flow is not arbitrarily great or small. A certain flow is required even for 100 percent efficiency to meet the acoustical requirements of tone. TCE typical claims of "very little" air can be easily dismissed.
Conventional embouchures can and ARE used by the vast majority of good aesthetically musical players.
You may have a severe roll-out with your native embouchure since you started on French horn. Likely putting undue stress on the vermillion.
You can correct that with a more reasonable embouchure without resorting to TCE.
Personally, I find that holding the tongue in that position requires an unacceptable amount of effort, and tension in the jaw. Also, it makes usable and musical articulation, including multiple tonging, impossible. |
Hi kalijah, I do agree that lots of air is used for both methods. I admit that seeing Bahb Civiletti appears to use A lot of air as does Callet, i.e. referencing how his neck swells when he plays which is kinda creepy. I would say that the use of that air, as far as my short time with the method is concerned, seems to be far more efficient in the way it's compressed and utilized. I also agree that the majority of players play with a standard classic embouchure, but that doesn't mean that it is the best system, just the most used, because this is what most players perpetuate, through teaching. If you asked me a week ago what if i thought the classic Arban embouchure is the best I probably would have agreed, now I would flat out say that for me, no way Jose. i also believe that each player does have to find what works bets for them , but in that sense, I say, always remain open minded, to what the mainstream dismisses, in all areas. edit: just to clarify I didn't start on French horn, I'm sorry if that was the impression I left somehow?
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Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I took a few lessons from Callet, and he told me only a mouthful of air was required. I wouldn’t call that lots of air. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I admit that seeing Bahb Civiletti appears to use A lot of air as does Callet, i.e. referencing how his neck swells when he plays which is kinda creepy. |
I was referring to air flow. Not air pressure or air volume. Neck swelling occurs when the air pressure is high and certain body throat areas are extremely relaxed. That tells one nothing about the air flow used.
| Quote: | | I would say that the use of that air, as far as my short time with the method is concerned, seems to be far more efficient in the way it's compressed and utilized. |
Compressed? There is no air "compression" except with the exhalation action.
And as I mentioned, flow is not arbitrarily variable. The acoustic requirements of the instrument dictate the minimum air flow required for a particular pitch and dynamic. Using excessive air pressure is not "efficient" either and could be an indication of inefficiency.
| Quote: | | I took a few lessons from Callet, and he told me only a mouthful of air was required. I wouldn’t call that lots of air.
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It depends on the flow required and the duration of the note or phrase. A "mouthful" could be too much or too little. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:10 am Post subject: Re: I was taught the wrong Embouchure!!? |
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| Douglas James wrote: |
I was taught the wrong Embouchure!!?
... |
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That could be true, because it seems that often initial instruction is satisfied with a beginner being able to produce 'any' type of blat or squawk and the instructor saying 'now you have the idea' - likely with the hope that the student will somehow improve without the instructor having to actually 'teach' about embouchure.
I've written an article about my views of embouchure, and it might be helpful to show the various aspects that get discussed.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I admit that seeing Bahb Civiletti appears to use A lot of air as does Callet, i.e. referencing how his neck swells when he plays which is kinda creepy. |
I was referring to air flow. Not air pressure or air volume. Neck swelling occurs when the air pressure is high and certain body throat areas are extremely relaxed. That tells one nothing about the air flow used.
| Quote: | | I would say that the use of that air, as far as my short time with the method is concerned, seems to be far more efficient in the way it's compressed and utilized. |
Compressed? There is no air "compression" except with the exhalation action.
And as I mentioned, flow is not arbitrarily variable. The acoustic requirements of the instrument dictate the minimum air flow required for a particular pitch and dynamic. Using excessive air pressure is not "efficient" either and could be an indication of inefficiency.
| Quote: | | I took a few lessons from Callet, and he told me only a mouthful of air was required. I wouldn’t call that lots of air.
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It depends on the flow required and the duration of the note or phrase. A "mouthful" could be too much or too little. |
the tongue compresses air in the same way it is compressed using the Arban method, with the tongue. at the roof of the mouth which causes the air to move faster. but I'm not sure what your point is, it looks like mostly splitting hairs or semantics??
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eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:35 am Post subject: Re: I was taught the wrong Embouchure!!? |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: |
I was taught the wrong Embouchure!!?
... |
-----------------------------------------------
That could be true, because it seems that often initial instruction is satisfied with a beginner being able to produce 'any' type of blat or squawk and the instructor saying 'now you have the idea' - likely with the hope that the student will somehow improve without the instructor having to actually 'teach' about embouchure.
I've written an article about my views of embouchure, and it might be helpful to show the various aspects that get discussed.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm |
Hi JayKosta, thanks for the link I'll read it. Yea, no none ever said anything tom me about how to form an embouchure, no one "checked " if it was even correct other than to look at how I mouthpiece buzz, and no one ever suggested a different way. I believe this is because many good players, probably managed to just "put the horn to your mouth and blow" and they were able to play using that method, while the ones who didn't, which I don't have a percentage figure on, drop out and get forgotten.
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Shaft
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Its a big trumpet world out there. At the same time it gets smaller as you dive in. Maggio, Stevens, superchops, Farkas, & variations to name a few. Not things that an elementary band director will typically download to the band.
Dig in! |
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bach_again
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:16 am Post subject: |
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You asked about a logical progression for someone like yourself who has responded well to Callet's teachings....
Commit to regular Callet-based lessons with someone knowledgeable on the style and teaching. I suggest contacting Rich Colquhoun in the UK and setting up lessons. His knowledge of the Callet system is extremely detailed. He is a very fine player and teacher.
As you note, Jerry had several variations of approach across the years. Rich and I have discussed this at length. I think he will help you come to an understanding and guide you through your progress.
Best,
Mike
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | You asked about a logical progression for someone like yourself who has responded well to Callet's teachings....
Commit to regular Callet-based lessons with someone knowledgeable on the style and teaching. I suggest contacting Rich Colquhoun in the UK and setting up lessons. His knowledge of the Callet system is extremely detailed. He is a very fine player and teacher.
As you note, Jerry had several variations of approach across the years. Rich and I have discussed this at length. I think he will help you come to an understanding and guide you through your progress.
Best,
Mike |
Hi Mike. seems I am way ahead of you. I tried to find Rich's email so I could make contact with him. do you happen to have his email handy? I looked on Rich's UK TCE site, some of his links were 404'd. any info you can send would be much appreciated. best/Doug
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the tongue compresses air in the same way it is compressed using the Arban method, with the tongue. at the roof of the mouth which causes the air to move faster. |
Move the tongue to certain position if it helps and engage in your imaginary mechanics all you like. But I can assure you it doesn't "compress" the air. Nor does it make the air "faster" through the lip aperture. Those are just popular myths among many players and teachers.
| Quote: | | but I'm not sure what your point is, it looks like mostly splitting hairs or semantics? |
Words must have agreed-upon definitions for meaningful discussion to occur. Perhaps you mean something else by "compression" than air pressure. |
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | the tongue compresses air in the same way it is compressed using the Arban method, with the tongue. at the roof of the mouth which causes the air to move faster. |
Move the tongue to certain position if it helps and engage in your imaginary mechanics all you like. But I can assure you it doesn't "compress" the air. Nor does it make the air "faster" through the lip aperture. Those are just popular myths among many players and teachers.
| Quote: | | but I'm not sure what your point is, it looks like mostly splitting hairs or semantics? |
Words must have agreed-upon definitions for meaningful discussion to occur. Perhaps you mean something else by "compression" than air pressure. |
in my case much of the lip swelling gets solved from the lower or upper lip
slightly over one of the other. idk, it works for me.
the difference is the air is fully compressed is it not, while playing in any register, where as Arban style uses syllables?
regardless even if I have misunderstood the mechanics of it, it seems to work, I have not had performance inhibiting lip swelling since I started. I don't care how it's working. as long as it does.
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bach_again
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chapahi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Douglas James wrote: | | Bahb Civiletti appears to use A lot of air as does Callet, i.e. referencing how his neck swells when he plays which is kinda creepy. |
Wrong. One of Bahb's teaching demos is to breathe all the air out of his lungs and play a four octave scale with his feet on the coffee table. Yes his neck expands but it's not about air.
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | Hi Douglas,
I have DM'd you Rich's contact info - if you look in your forum inbox you'll find this.
I know Rich won't mind me sharing his email account here either. He is an excellent teacher and deeply versed in Callet's teaching.
info@trumpetpla.net
Keep up the success you are having!
Best,
Mike |
Mike thanks !!!! I got a email form him this morning. I really appreciate it. best/Doug
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| chapahi wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: | | Bahb Civiletti appears to use A lot of air as does Callet, i.e. referencing how his neck swells when he plays which is kinda creepy. |
Wrong. One of Bahb's teaching demos is to breathe all the air out of his lungs and play a four octave scale with his feet on the coffee table. Yes his neck expands but it's not about air. |
oops I see that could have been read as Bahbs neck expanding but I meant Jerry. Bahb seems to use less air. but it is hard to tell, with any player how much air is actually being used. in players like Callet and Gillespie, I see a lot of air . haha yea I saw the vid of him in the comfy chair blowing the Brandenburg on Bb, up and octave playing in the clarino register. very impressive!.
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zaferis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:38 am Post subject: |
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a couple of ideas from another direction maybe..lots going on, but here's where I'd start with you as a student.
First of all it doesn't take a massive amount of air to play the trumpet, quite the opposite.. the right amount under control is not that much - when you hear/read players talk about efficiency - that's what is being talked about. Watch a video of Allen Vizzutti or Tine Helseth play.
Then that much swelling points toward some other things first - an allergy to silver (or brass if your mouthpiece is in poor condition) - have you tried a plastic mouthpiece???
Or you're using and extreme amount of pressure (mouthpiece against your face), possibly pinching against teeth. This might be a complicated by a mouthpiece that isn't the best for you - but a whole topic on it's own. (teacher help)
I can't recommend face-to-face lessons from a qualified teacher highly enough.
I can't recommend face-to-face lessons from a qualified teacher highly enough, - yes intentionally written twice.! (college prof, accomplished master, etc) ... then you must commit to the work/the grind, not bouncing from one idea to the next. Self diagnosis is (IMO especially with returning adults) often inaccurate to say the least. "Google" doctoring confuses, muddles, and rarely if ever has good results.
I will put money on the issue NOT being one thing. but a combination of many aspects of playing the trumpet. (approach-mental & physical, mechanics, equipment, etc)
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chapahi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of mouthpieces, there are mouthpieces designed to address the problem some people have of lip swelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpM1rJMlGU
I haven't tried these but they've been around awhile.
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:41 am Post subject: |
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"the BE way unless it uses a Callet type embouchure is out. lip to lip buzzing does not work for me. my lips swell".
I must comment, bluntly, upon this: If your lips swell while using the BE method as prescribed by the book - then there´s something rotten about the state of your way of playing!
My lips were really deep down the drain, swelling, spongy (yes I had played most of my life on a faulty embouchure, this notwithstanding very successfully until ageing and overuse disclosed my short comings) when I began with this method and it turned out to make possible an almost magical re entry to playing.
And I am still developing. Through hard work.
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