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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:57 am Post subject: Descending Intervals Problem |
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Let me see if I can describe my problem clearly. I'm thinking specifically about the notes at the top of the staff beginning with 1st ledger line "A" and descending down to about 4th line "D". I don't have any trouble ascending through those notes diatonically, chromatically, or larger intervals. But for a long time I've been having trouble descending. I was just now reading the Sigmund Hering Etude #4. On line 6, m 1 I could not play the descending A to F# to D# then the G/E/C. It got better when I slowed it down and made each note a quarter note at about 60 but it still ain't great. Descending interals in that range strike fear into my heart when I see it in literature. Any thoughts? _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:21 am Post subject: |
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There's so much nuance and precision that is required when describing sound that would be cleared up with a recording. I'll try and ask the questions required to properly respond:
1. Is the range you mention a VERY comfortable range for you
2. What exactly is the trouble in descending? Do you miss the note completely, do you go too far down, do you have an odd sound? What is the trouble?
3. What happens when you slow it down to half notes at 60?
4. Can you sing those intervals with extreme precision?
5. Have you recorded yourself?
There's more, but let's start there. |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 728 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Hard to say what is causing the problem without seeing and hearing you play. But playing/chop issues often stem from inconsistent air flow. Here’s a clip of Allen Vizzutti with some interesting thoughts:
https://youtu.be/6_OXw9o95aY?si=BPnPjKsfcABqK4YQ
Might not resolve this problem but useful info to think about. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3332 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:45 am Post subject: |
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It's typical to practice going higher, so more skill is developed learning how to make the adjustments in that direction. When going lower, it is necessary to learn how to control the 'relaxation' adjustments.
Going slowly and precisely is important, and developing the habit of making the adjustments to land on the desired note. For me, it's imaging the pitch and the 'feel' needed for the notes _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:09 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | learn how to control the 'relaxation' adjustments.
'feel' needed for the notes |
Control implies active effort. However, often deactivating the coordination effort is sometimes the solution. As Guillaume Jehl would say "do nohsing" (French accent for "do nothing"). |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 179 Location: Spain
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:37 am Post subject: |
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It is easier to climb a tree than to take it down.
It happens to me too.
I can think of some logical exercises:
- Practice it an octave lower.
- Loop up and down the arpeggio.
-Play the descending arpeggio with chromatic passing notes, faster and faster, keeping a long tone on the target note.
I guess you already practice this kind of exercises.
One last thing, play without fear, your body already knows how to play those notes, it just needs to learn the way to play them in that descending order. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge
Last edited by Trumpjerele on Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3332 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:41 am Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | learn how to control the 'relaxation' adjustments.
'feel' needed for the notes |
Control implies active effort. However, often deactivating the coordination effort is sometimes the solution. ... |
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I use the term 'control' in the generalized sense of
'having the physical actions (the 'doing' of playing) occur as needed to achieve the desired results'.
That doesn't mean the player needs to be aware of the details, or to consciously make physical adjustments - it is fine if the proper adjustments 'just happen' as needed when 'stimulated' by the 'sound intent' of the player.
I think that most players and teachers recognize that producing the desired 'sound intent' requires physical actions and adjustments - it won't happen with just 'wishing and hoping'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:59 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: |
I use the term 'control' in the generalized sense of
'having the physical actions (the 'doing' of playing) occur as needed to achieve the desired results'.
That doesn't mean the player needs to be aware of the details, or to consciously make physical adjustments - it is fine if the proper adjustments 'just happen' as needed when 'stimulated' by the 'sound intent' of the player.
I think that most players and teachers recognize that producing the desired 'sound intent' requires physical actions and adjustments - it won't happen with just 'wishing and hoping'. |
I did not mean to invoke any "song and wind" "just wish it to be so" whisperings. I meant that you should experiment with both sides of the spectrum.
1. See what happens when you try to "make it happen"
2. See what happens when you try and "make nothing happen"
3. See what happens when you "do nothing"
4. See what happens when you focus on air
5. See what happens when you focus on sound
6. etc.
All of them, including your advice should be done in the absence of teacher/coach. |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 256
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Am I correct in saying that if you have to think about it you haven’t mastered it?
Or, you’re thinking, but similarly to the degree you think about how to walk while walking? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3332 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:36 am Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | JayKosta wrote: |
... it is fine if the proper adjustments 'just happen' as needed when 'stimulated' by the 'sound intent' of the player.
... |
I did not mean to invoke any "song and wind" ... |
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I view 'song and wind' as the stimulus that unconsciously activates the necessary 'doing' skills that the player has achieved through good practice.
And of course, a player who improves their 'song' will likely improve their 'doings'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:00 pm Post subject: Descending Intervals Problem |
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[quote="abontrumpet"]There's so much nuance and precision that is required when describing sound that would be cleared up with a recording. I'll try and ask the questions required to properly respond:
1. Is the range you mention a VERY comfortable range for you
Well, not "very" comfortable. I'm a 68 yr old amateur and play mostly 2nd and 3rd parts.
2. What exactly is the trouble in descending? Do you miss the note completely, do you go too far down, do you have an odd sound? What is the trouble?
In this example, when I come off the "A", instead of hitting the "F#" I land on the "D#". This happens in other examples in the same register.
3. What happens when you slow it down to half notes at 60?
It gets better...just not great. I played it slowly several times this morning and came back to it late in the afternoon. It was better.
4. Can you sing those intervals with extreme precision?
On lower pitches, yes.
5. Have you recorded yourself?
Not doing this.
[/i] _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:03 pm Post subject: Descending Intervals Problem |
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MrOlds wrote: | Hard to say what is causing the problem without seeing and hearing you play. But playing/chop issues often stem from inconsistent air flow. Here’s a clip of Allen Vizzutti with some interesting thoughts:
https://youtu.be/6_OXw9o95aY?si=BPnPjKsfcABqK4YQ
Might not resolve this problem but useful info to think about. |
Hmmm. "Inconsistent air flow". I'm wondering if I'm dumping the air? _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 133
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, you might be dumping the air. or relaxing the embouchure too much.
Try ...
- keeping what you think is the same air and embouchure, just relax a teeny tiny bit
- playing A G#, A G , A F#, A F , A E, A D#, A D
- add it in threes: A G# G, A G# F#, A G F, A F# D#, A F# D or something like that.
- do it slowly and only speed up incrementally when it sounds and feels good.
- try to keep a more consistent embouchure throughout. The notes might be closer together than you think.[/list] _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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Destructo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 178
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Descending is harder than ascending.
Keep the Mouthpiece with the lower jaw, so that you can feel your lower teeth. Practice tonguing the interval then immediately slurring it. Stay with the lower teeth. Notice how you likely stay with the teeth when tonguing and pull away when slurring.
It's easy to lift off and away from the lower teeth when descending which means the jaw and the embouchure are no longer working together and all sorts of lip manipulation starts to happen, along with exaggerated pivoting.
The Reinhardt folks have two great exercises called the "pivot stabilizer" and the "track routine". Both would help a lot with this.
One other thing that can help as well is to play the A, allow your cheeks to puff, then slur down with the puffed cheeks. This seems to force you to stay with the teeth. Obviously this is an exercise only. Once you get the feel, go back to playing it normally.
Hope that helps! |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Destructo wrote: | Descending is harder than ascending. |
It is not.
mograph wrote: | Yeah, you might be dumping the air. or relaxing the embouchure too much. |
Can we define "dumping" air? In general, there is little difference to the perceived air flow between these three notes. It basically feels unchanged. As I said before, experiment with "pretending" to play the same note twice (in terms of trumpet approach) and just hear/finger the next note. Allow the trumpet to help you learn.
BarryWilson wrote: | In this example, when I come off the "A", instead of hitting the "F#" I land on the "D#". This happens in other examples in the same register. |
Sounds like you just need more time getting coordinated up there. If you're regularly playing 2nd and 3rd parts and tend not to practice regularly up there, it just takes time. Bring your same good habits to that register and keep at it. |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 133
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:25 am Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: |
mograph wrote: | Yeah, you might be dumping the air. or relaxing the embouchure too much. |
Can we define "dumping" air?
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I'd define it as the player's not maintaining the same compression that they had for the higher notes. Open to suggestions for a more apt metaphor. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: |
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mograph wrote: |
I'd define it as the player's not maintaining the same compression that they had for the higher notes. Open to suggestions for a more apt metaphor. |
Not maintaining can be "increasing" or "decreasing." We have not defined which one of those two is "dumping." But it doesn't matter. Yes, relatively maintained is the goal. |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 1:08 am Post subject: Descending Intervals Problem |
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Thank you all so much for taking time to work on this with me. I got several ideas that I'm going to work on. You guys are great! _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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mograph Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 Posts: 133
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 1:23 am Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | mograph wrote: |
I'd define it as the player's not maintaining the same compression that they had for the higher notes. Open to suggestions for a more apt metaphor. |
Not maintaining can be "increasing" or "decreasing." We have not defined which one of those two is "dumping." But it doesn't matter. Yes, relatively maintained is the goal. |
Decreasing. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music |
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Destructo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 178
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | [quote="abontrumpet"] Destructo wrote: | Descending is harder than ascending. |
It is not. |
Ah yes, very sophisticated and nuanced response.
In case it's not perfectly obvious from the rest of my response, which you clearly ignored in order to merely be contrary for no apparent reason, descending incorrectly is very easy to do, thus descending is harder to do correctly (than ascending). That would have been perfectly clear from the rest of what I wrote but willfully being contrary seems to be the goal here.
Many people have difficulty with descending, more so than ascending. Some don't even realize this until the following note after a wide descending interval where they discover they've used so much manipulation on the descent that that everything is out of whack. The air is seldom the problem. The problem is people start pulling away from the lower teeth, the lower lip starts to float and the embouchure becomes floppy. The wider the interval the more likely it is to happen.
If you don't believe me, next time you have a student struggling with this, just forget about air-air-air and actually watch what they're doing. It's very obvious if you pay attention. It's not "dumping the air" it's more like "dumping the lower lip". |
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