View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
TrumpetSkinny Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Posts: 17
|
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:25 am Post subject: Stevens-Costello Embouchure |
|
|
I recently embarked on an embouchure modification with the help of the Roy Stevens book. I've noticed a rapid increase to range and volume. However, I've had some other difficulties with tonguing, slurring, and overall flexibility. I can't seem to blow through fast bebop tunes like I am used to or play passages cleanly. What can I do to improve my flexibility and technique? Is there something with the embouchure that helps facilitate this? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
DizzyChrizzy01 Regular Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 54 Location: Germany/NYC
|
Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Use anchor tonguing. The tip of your tongue stays right behind your lower teeth and touches the teeth gently. The attack is produced by touching the roof of your mouth cave right behind the upper teeth with the upper side of your tongue. The contact point is about half an inch behind the tip of the tongue.
Use your tongue to speed up/compress/form the airstream. It is worth checking Jerry Callets TCE ideas to get more insight – even if you do not use TCE in a pure form. The general ideas are 100% worth checking. A quote from Jerry Callet, which I found in this forum, is also helpful for Stevens/Costello: “Make a fist with the muscles below your lower lip.
After some practicing you will regain flexibility. It is a simple movement, kind of “knack” you will find. It may come after minutes or a week. No muscle training is required, just to do the right movement. Once you found it, you got it.
You may however loose it again. That’s what happened to me last weekend. Really bad. I found it again yesterday within an hour of practicing – or more precisely described: when trying to discover the coordination again.
Christian |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 756 Location: Levittown NY
|
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Stevens-Costello Embouchure |
|
|
TrumpetSkinny wrote: | I recently embarked on an embouchure modification with the help of the Roy Stevens book. I've noticed a rapid increase to range and volume. However, I've had some other difficulties with tonguing, slurring, and overall flexibility. I can't seem to blow through fast bebop tunes like I am used to or play passages cleanly. What can I do to improve my flexibility and technique? Is there something with the embouchure that helps facilitate this? |
Here's the email address of Allen Geller, he was a long time student of Roy Stevens and has published a new revised edition of Roy's method.
His email address is" contact@stevens-costellochops.com". |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NickD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 679 Location: Chicago (northern suburbs)
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
tathagata69 New Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 Posts: 5
|
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Re: the Stevens Costello book. The Al Geller version of the book is non-copyrighted book that's overpriced.
The authorized book by Roy's original editor. close friend, and former local 802 President, Bill Moriarity, can be found at Amazon for more than half the price at $13.46
http://amzn.com/1469955911
The videos on www.roystevens.org will correspond as lesson plans to this version of the book. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TrumpetSkinny Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Posts: 17
|
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the tips. I've found through some experimentation that I was thinning my lips which contributed to a lack of flexility. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ferrarosd New Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 7 Location: United States
|
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:38 am Post subject: Re: I THINK this video series is in support of this method.. |
|
|
NickD wrote: | I stumbled across this in doing research for my Facebook business page (Drozdoff Music Productions) which is essentially my trumpeter's blog. I thought Roy Roman did a fine job in explaing how he did things. There are a lot of helpful clips here.
http://www.roystevens.org/?page_id=12
ND/&out |
Okay guys, I HAD to share the strangest, weirdest video I’ve ever found on embouchure. I’ve looked at a lot of Rawlins videos and he is a terrific player. In this one, he does clearly state that this is his take on Roy Stevens embouchure. I had thought so. It is hard to watch because the entire thing is a close up of his mouth. Hairy lips, teeth, saliva and all! But, I have personally been searching for this kind of close up detail and explanation for nearly three years, and was happy to see somebody finally do a close up and give the detail. But is it right? He seems to make perfect sense to me, and clearly falls into the “air blowing the lips into position” camp.
My question for you, my trumpet playing friends, is (if you can get through watching this twenty minutes of close up detail) IS HE RIGHT?
He tries to be cute with a goofy super hero opening, and added the weirdest background noises throughout. He might have gone overboard on that, but if you watch closely and listen to what he says, I am dying to know if he is correct and the physics is sound. He is a unique guy to be sure, but is his method sound? In some of his other video's like this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Km4BoYRpQ I love his sound.
It seems to be correct to me based on what I have been discovering about my own playing lately, from Roy Roman’s explanation of the Roy Stevens palm exercise, etc. I am playing higher and easier, and it feels like I’m doing, or trying to do, what Rawlins says here, but I wonder, am I heading in the wrong direction? I know everybody is different, but I value your opinions.
Thanks in advance for your time and input.
Here’s the video link: (close up explanation on chops and placement)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joCN-3rZ2n8
All the best!
Steve Ferraro _________________ All the best!
Steve
303.587.2700 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tim McCarthy New Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Posts: 5 Location: Northfield, MN
|
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: I THINK this video series is in support of this method.. |
|
|
Does anyone use the "tongue controlled embouchre?" I have had success with it in warm ups and range exercises, but feel like it's hard to project in a big band setting |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tomba51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 624 Location: Hilton Head, SC
|
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: I THINK this video series is in support of this method.. |
|
|
Tim McCarthy wrote: | Does anyone use the "tongue controlled embouchre?" I have had success with it in warm ups and range exercises, but feel like it's hard to project in a big band setting |
Check out the Jerry Callet forum for much more info on this system. _________________ Tom Barreca |
|
Back to top |
|
|
StupidBrassObsession Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 1014
|
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: I THINK this video series is in support of this method.. |
|
|
ferrarosd wrote: | NickD wrote: | I stumbled across this in doing research for my Facebook business page (Drozdoff Music Productions) which is essentially my trumpeter's blog. I thought Roy Roman did a fine job in explaing how he did things. There are a lot of helpful clips here.
http://www.roystevens.org/?page_id=12
ND/&out |
Okay guys, I HAD to share the strangest, weirdest video I’ve ever found on embouchure. I’ve looked at a lot of Rawlins videos and he is a terrific player. In this one, he does clearly state that this is his take on Roy Stevens embouchure. I had thought so. It is hard to watch because the entire thing is a close up of his mouth. Hairy lips, teeth, saliva and all! But, I have personally been searching for this kind of close up detail and explanation for nearly three years, and was happy to see somebody finally do a close up and give the detail. But is it right? He seems to make perfect sense to me, and clearly falls into the “air blowing the lips into position” camp.
My question for you, my trumpet playing friends, is (if you can get through watching this twenty minutes of close up detail) IS HE RIGHT?
He tries to be cute with a goofy super hero opening, and added the weirdest background noises throughout. He might have gone overboard on that, but if you watch closely and listen to what he says, I am dying to know if he is correct and the physics is sound. He is a unique guy to be sure, but is his method sound? In some of his other video's like this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Km4BoYRpQ I love his sound.
It seems to be correct to me based on what I have been discovering about my own playing lately, from Roy Roman’s explanation of the Roy Stevens palm exercise, etc. I am playing higher and easier, and it feels like I’m doing, or trying to do, what Rawlins says here, but I wonder, am I heading in the wrong direction? I know everybody is different, but I value your opinions.
Thanks in advance for your time and input.
Here’s the video link: (close up explanation on chops and placement)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joCN-3rZ2n8
All the best!
Steve Ferraro |
Hey,
I've seen George's videos. They are great explanations of the Stevens method of trumpet playing.
I have no idea why all the weird and random sound effects. I wonder if it was some sort of accident. I don't know how that would happen but it is definitely very random and he doesn't do it in any of his other videos beyond the intro.
Anyway, the problem with all these things is that they *aren't quick fixes*.
People wrongly assume that if they just put their jaw forward and align their lips right, they'll magically turn into John Faddis or Maynard. That just doesn't happen. Ever.
None of the guys who have adopted a Stevens embouchure - unless the only difference required to their existing embouchure was a slight tweaking - picked it up and the next month started nailing lead trumpet parts.
What you don't hear much is that a lot of the guys spent months or even years learning to play with that embouchure. There is musculature and co-ordination involved that can't be short-cutted developmentally speaking. The guys who can play well that way, without fail, spent a lot of time and effort learning it. All embouchures take a lot of time and effort, there are no shortcuts.
Same goes for Superchops/TCE. Very few people are able to attempt it and see useable results in the short term. They might get some limited sudden advantages like being able to squeal some notes but it is still an embouchure change and they don't happen over night.
No one has ever really been able to explain to me why a flat chin was important. It was until recently when mine started to flatten of it's own accord that I realised that it's the lower lip hugging the teeth that's important, as it keeps the jaw and lower lip as one unit and allow the embouchure muscles to close the lips towards the centre, but not in the actual centre. It's exactly what Doc Severinsen talks about in the Masterclass video on youtube. Same with Vizzutti, if you watch how he blows air and then adds the mouthpiece/trumpet in the masterclass video, you can see that the lower lip doesn't pout forward but stays snug with the lower teeth.
It's why the 'blow out the candles' analogy works for some and not others - some instinctively keep their lower lip against the teeth and others (like me) let it blow forward in a pucker.
I do love the beginning of the Severinsen clinic though...
Doc: "I would say... How many trumpet players are there in the audience? Raise your hands. I suppose you all want to be better trumpet players, right? and your hands would go up again. Then I would say - 'well, go home and practice' and I would walk out. And that is really about all there is to say about trumpet playing!" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
|
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:55 pm Post subject: first |
|
|
There is NO SUCH THING AS ANCHOR TONGUING.
In fact, the advice of one of the greatest proponents and teachers of the Clarke technique taught the tongue should never be rigid or anchored, but the tip and middle moving always, note to note..because it is the TONGUE, not the lip, that changes position from note to note. And do me a favor..save the rhetoric for Clarke and Claude Gordon, in the next life. Study, instead, and learn.
Secondly, Costello advised and taught, to use only the tip of the tongue in the classically taught way, behind the top teeth.
Having said that, the technique will work with either tongue position. In my experience, rolling the lip in, is not the foundation of the success ...rather, it is bringing the bottom lip up, and the jaw slightly forward, that serves to better balance the em brochure and help many with the higher register. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
|
Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DB
Last edited by dbacon on Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rockford Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2477 Location: Northern VA
|
Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Stevens-Costello Embouchure |
|
|
TrumpetSkinny wrote: | I recently embarked on an embouchure modification with the help of the Roy Stevens book. I've noticed a rapid increase to range and volume. However, I've had some other difficulties with tonguing, slurring, and overall flexibility. I can't seem to blow through fast bebop tunes like I am used to or play passages cleanly. What can I do to improve my flexibility and technique? Is there something with the embouchure that helps facilitate this? | It's all interrelated. You probably have a lot of conflicting muscle memory from your old way of playing. Pretty much impossible to change one thing without changing something else. Try several short practice sessions throughout the day with lots of breaks. _________________ Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
herbievantetering Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2023 Posts: 23
|
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 10:52 am Post subject: not useful |
|
|
Stevens Costello is not a useful system, it involves too much the adaptations of teeth etc. in order to get the 'flat' embouchure effect; it is more of a 'medical quakery' and 'marketing gimmick' than a useful method.
When trumpet methods get themselves involved in medical aspects and neuromuscular aspects, something must be wrong. The truth must be told about these approaches which only a handful of players can apply after major medical adaptations.
We're not talking about a method that works with a regular person with normal healthcare and a healthy class one.
The 'medical quackery' involved in making the diagram of the 'embouchure muscles' is the worse; it portrays the embouchure neuromuscular system as a 'perfectly centered' system which is also completely 'flat' and 'perfectly symmetric' so how are players supposed to learn on that?
You must have done some 'medical quackery' to reach the 'costello point' and it would be best to steer clear of such 'medical quackery' in trumpet method books.
Also, the tongueing method in Stevens Costello is completely wrong, the lip roll would (at most) get you a useless screamer and the medical diagram is full of viral advertisements, ..., another proof that the method involves 'medical quackery' beyond a healthy set of teeth (and at most some 'zahn schleifen') to improve the flow.
But hey, ..., the method is from NY and Hollywood, so I'd say buy the CD from these quacks now, ..., before it's too late. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 241
|
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: not useful |
|
|
herbievantetering wrote: | Stevens Costello is not a useful system, it involves too much the adaptations of teeth etc. in order to get the 'flat' embouchure effect; it is more of a 'medical quakery' and 'marketing gimmick' than a useful method.
When trumpet methods get themselves involved in medical aspects and neuromuscular aspects, something must be wrong. The truth must be told about these approaches which only a handful of players can apply after major medical adaptations.
We're not talking about a method that works with a regular person with normal healthcare and a healthy class one.
The 'medical quackery' involved in making the diagram of the 'embouchure muscles' is the worse; it portrays the embouchure neuromuscular system as a 'perfectly centered' system which is also completely 'flat' and 'perfectly symmetric' so how are players supposed to learn on that?
You must have done some 'medical quackery' to reach the 'costello point' and it would be best to steer clear of such 'medical quackery' in trumpet method books.
Also, the tongueing method in Stevens Costello is completely wrong, the lip roll would (at most) get you a useless screamer and the medical diagram is full of viral advertisements, ..., another proof that the method involves 'medical quackery' beyond a healthy set of teeth (and at most some 'zahn schleifen') to improve the flow.
But hey, ..., the method is from NY and Hollywood, so I'd say buy the CD from these quacks now, ..., before it's too late. |
I've heard Roy Stevens play, and he could play! He had a nice sound in all registers and played with a lot of well known artists. He must have been doing something right.
As far as it being useless, I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole. I don't think it works for everyone. He had several well known players as students. Don Ellis studied with Roy for a long time. Not known as a high note guy but Don had excellent high chops. There's a video of his band at Montreaux playing a piece called Open Wide. He nails a Double B at the end of the intro and it's pretty impressive. He also didn't appear to be working too hard to hit the Double B.
I heard Lloyd Michaels live with Buddy Rich and he could peel paint in the upper register. Lloyd studied with Roy. Paul Bogosian studied with Roy and was Don Ellis's lead player.
I've never heard Roy Roman play, except on video. I wasn't too impressed. Roy doesn't play trumpet any more and has started playing clarinet.
I think you need certain physical characteristics for his system to work. If it works for you then run with it. If not, don't criticize. Ditto for Callett. I studied with Jerry and his power was through the roof. I used what worked for me and added in some of Jeff Smiley's stuff. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For me, a BIG enlightenment that I got from reading (not studying with, or actually using the 'method') was the simple realization that it is critical for the aperture to be flexible and physically adjusted to operate at the desired pitch when a controlled air flow is blown into the instrument.
This is much different than the idea that the aperture is like a guitar string that depends on tightness, or being 'smashed into submission'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9098 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:34 am Post subject: Re: not useful |
|
|
peanuts56 wrote: |
I've heard Roy Stevens play, and he could play! He had a nice sound in all registers and played with a lot of well known artists. He must have been doing something right.
As far as it being useless, I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole. I don't think it works for everyone. He had several well known players as students. Don Ellis studied with Roy for a long time. Not known as a high note guy but Don had excellent high chops. There's a video of his band at Montreaux playing a piece called Open Wide. He nails a Double B at the end of the intro and it's pretty impressive. He also didn't appear to be working too hard to hit the Double B.
I heard Lloyd Michaels live with Buddy Rich and he could peel paint in the upper register. Lloyd studied with Roy. Paul Bogosian studied with Roy and was Don Ellis's lead player.
I've never heard Roy Roman play, except on video. I wasn't too impressed. Roy doesn't play trumpet any more and has started playing clarinet.
I think you need certain physical characteristics for his system to work. If it works for you then run with it. If not, don't criticize. Ditto for Callett. I studied with Jerry and his power was through the roof. I used what worked for me and added in some of Jeff Smiley's stuff. |
Gee, first-hand data. What a concept. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1970 Location: WI
|
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: not useful |
|
|
peanuts56 wrote: | I think you need certain physical characteristics for his system to work. If it works for you then run with it. If not, don't criticize |
This is golden. Different things will work for different people, depending on their physical characteristics. Absolute principles that apply to everyone (in either a positive or negative sense) are relatively rare, or very basic in nature. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
chase1973 Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2018 Posts: 135 Location: Valdosta
|
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Many people think the Stevens system is for the benefit of upstream types only. Not true as both Don Ellis and Dave Sheetz are downstream types and studied w Roy Stevens for many years.
In the study which has you hold the trumpet with the palm of the hand and you "attempt" to play the "statics" as he called it, the "squeaker's" as it were, this has benefits for both downstream and upstream types, especially my fellow downstream types who tend to recede the lower jaw when playing. This exercise forces that lower jaw out, which takes pressure off of that top lip.
Only way to see if it works for you is to try it. If not, simply discard and move on. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1187 Location: Silver Spring, MD
|
Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dave Sheetz is a Reinhardt guy... you sure he "studied w Roy Stevens for many years" ??
Maybe he did but I'm not aware of it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|