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Dvweaver New Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2023 Posts: 5 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:15 am Post subject: Copper Bell Flugelhorns? |
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Hey all. I've been in the market for a new flugelhorn. I recently had the pleasure of trying an Adam's F5. After trying it against a bunch of other models, the the dark sound of the Adams was (in my opinion) far superior. In looking at the specs, I realized the Adams had a copper bell, which I believe is the biggest contributor to the sound that I loved.
If I'm liking the dark sound of the Adams (presumably from the copper), would any of you have any suggestions on other horns I should compare it to? I'm reading the Kanstul 1525 is a fierce competitor, but there are only so many of those available, so I would be most open to accessible brands/models.
Thanks a ton! _________________ YTR-8335II - GR Lazarus 67, Lotus 3L2N, Lotus 3XSN
Holton T602CS - Mt. V 10 1/2C, Lotus 9S Turbo
Holton Collegiate Cornet - Bach 5A
YFH-8315IIG - Shew Flugel
Last edited by Dvweaver on Mon Apr 08, 2024 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scatanas Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 299
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have the Kanstul 1525 and it’s just on another level. I’ve played the Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, 2 different Adams (can’t remember which models, sorry) and I owned the Courtois 154.
Nothing comes close to the 1525.
From what I hear, the Inderbiden Wood is like a slightly better 1525 but it’s $6,000. Never played one though.
So I’d say unless you’re in a big rush it’s worth the wait for one to pop up. I waited and looked online for over a year, but it was well worth the wait. _________________ Martin Bohme Tumultus
Kanstul 1525 |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 726 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:59 pm Post subject: Schilke Flugelhorns |
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I have a Schilke 1040 FL and am very happy. The 1041FLC has a copper bell. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Kanstul 1525 and also an Adams A2 with a red brass bell and nickel silver flair. I had the Kanstul before I got the Adams. They produce much different sounds.
The Kanstul produces a fluffier, darker, dispersed, classic flugelhorn sound. It's a wonderful sound. The Adams produces a brighter, more focused, more projecting sound (which is the reason I got the Adams, I wanted a flugelhorn with that sound so I had a versatile pair of flugelhorns).
For a small group I think the Kanstul is the superior flugelhorn. In a larger ensemble where you could use more projection the Adams would match that situation better than the Kanstul.
I also have a Schlagerl Killer Queen flugelhorn and it is awesome. I'm assuming it has a yellow brass bell. It's maybe not quite as dark as the Kanstul but it gets a great flugelhorn sound. Of course the main point of the Schlagerl is the valves. The quickness of the rotary valves is fabulous. No piston flugelhorn can match the dexterity of the Schlagerl and its rotary valves. It's a big difference. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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claf Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 Posts: 49
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Check also the Van Laars, more particularly the Oiram and Fresu. _________________ Bb: Schagerl James Morrison, Van Laar B7
C: Bach Philadelphia |
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Stan Harrison Regular Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Newark, De.
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:25 am Post subject: |
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I prefer Copper Bells. But the size and Taper of the bell makes a difference. I've had a Kanstul 1525 copper, a Calicchio copper, a Red brass Brasspire, A copper Harrelson Summit Flugel, and now an A.R Resonance with 170MM copper bell. Special order. The Calicchio copper was Huge. A Jo-Ral Flugel mute wouldn't fit in it because the bell was too big, but it fit in the Kanstul, Both are 6.5 inches but the Callichio was much wider leading up to the final diameter. My A.R, is 6.7 inch but that mute fits. Then there is the thickness of the Copper. The Harrelson Copper was really thick and the 1525 thinner. I don't like Flugelhorns that sound like Cornets. To me Copper gets Colors that I don't get from Brass. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:27 am Post subject: Copper vs Brass |
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I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 192 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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To add to the confusion, some horns are not solid copper but copper plated brass. The ACB Coppernicus comes to mind. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1902 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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The second best flugel I ever had was an Old CT model with a copper bell. After that, the Couesnon. I liked the 1525, but play testing (e\yes closed) didn't hear enough difference between the copper and brass bell to sway me much. Then again, I almost play test for sound with my eyes closed, and like to take someone with me when i check out a new horn, so they can hear the difference in front of the bell. Horns don't always sound the same in front as they do in back, after all. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
I had a chance to play a copper bell 1025 at Fergusson Music, once. I already had purchased a silver plated 1025. You are right, Tony, the copper does not sound darker, but each time I have compared them side by side with yellow brass, the copper has played a little more sweetly and responded that little bit more delicately. My raw finished WT flugelhorn is the most responsive instrument I have ever owned. Not by a lot, but it is noticeable, in my opinion. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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deleted_user_cd24e5f New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
+ 1
The look is beautiful. The rationalizing is human. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2203 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Getzen's 4895 Custom Reserve flugel has a copper bell and it's gorgeous. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2147 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Someplace on his Facebook account, Brent Peters (of Puje trumpets) says that his copper bells are the brightest bells he uses/used. Probably has to do with the profile as well, not only the material. I do however agree that Cu bells look awesome. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Johnny-Highnote Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 266 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote: | Tony Scodwell wrote: | I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
+ 1
The look is beautiful. The rationalizing is human. |
+2
I had the feeling that Copper flugels play very soft over microphone,while played "relaxed"-but tend to get nasty in live situations (without PA)
My Courtois 154 was a "best of both worlds" thing,but believe it or not
The best sounding flugal for live playing is a Qouesnon silver plated brass...
It has something without getting "sharp"
_________________ Greatings from Germany
Dennis
38b "Frankenconn" with Bauerfeind Valve block/ Yamaha 6345G /Yamaha 631/Courtois 154G / Curry+Klier 1,5 mpc`s |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2102 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Play testing flugelhorns is a challenge. Most shops only stock one or two (if at all), and even the biggest shops may only have a few. While the testing environment is not ideal, you might want to consider a trip to an ITG conference, the Midwest Clinic, the NAMM Show...where you are likely to find a variety of flugelhorns to try.
Quote: | If I'm liking the dark sound of the Adams (presumably from the copper), would any of you have any suggestions on other horns I should compare it to? |
It is tricky to point to one design element of an instrument and conclude that element is why you like the instrument. One flugelhorn that comes to mind is the Getzen 4895CR. It has a lush, warm sound which seems to be what you are drawn to. It also happens to have a copper bell and a "straight flow" like (I believe) the F5, but a slightly larger bell and bore than the F5.
Good luck! |
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