Sticking First Valve on Flugelhorn

[HERMOKIWI]

I have an extremely perplexing problem with my Adams F2 flugelhorn. There are times when I play D above high C (the D that is 3 spaces above the staff) with the first valve depressed or the F above high C (the F that is 4 spaces above the staff) with the first valve depressed and if I hold out the note the first valve will remain depressed (even though I have released the valve by raising my finger off the valve button) until I stop playing the sustained note no matter how long that is. The moment I stop playing the sustained note the valve pops back up. This problem occurs only with the first valve. The second and third valves always work perfectly regardless of the note being played.

This is an intermittent problem. It does not always happen and the valve always works perfectly for anything below D above high C. The valve is vented and the venting is unobstructed and working. The problem occurs regardless of my hand position. When I test compression the valve doesn't leak air at all. The problem usually does not occur right after I oil the valves but it doesn't take long (maybe 5 minutes) for it to start happening with D and F above high C while the valve continues to function perfectly with all notes lower than that. Again, however, it is intermittent. I can have the problem, keep playing without re-oiling and not have the problem and play some more with the problem repeating. It is very inconsistent in that way.

I've tried Hetman #2, Hetman #3, Ultra Pure, La Roche Thomas and Blue Juice and I have this problem with all of them. I've cleaned the horn thoroughly with extra attention to the lead pipe, first valve slide, first valve slide receivers, the tubing between the valves and the first valve itself. I've tried playing with the top and bottom valve caps not tight to relieve any tension there. I've tried playing with the first valve slide slightly pulled out. Nothing I've tried eliminates this problem.

Has anyone out there had this issue? Does anyone know what is creating this problem? Does anyone know how to fix it?

I've hypothesized that at the D above C and above somehow air pressure is displacing the oil and causing the valve to seize until the air pressure is removed by the note stopping. That's what it acts like. However, this hypothesis doesn't make much sense when this is happening with just this one horn and just this one valve and not with any of the 50 or so other horns I have. Plus is there really that much air pressure involved here?

As I said, it's perplexing. All input will be appreciated.
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HERMOKIWI

[Ronnman]

HERMOKIWI - First, I would try another brand of oil, going to a thicker oil. I did a simple test putting a drop of different brands/viscosities of oils on glass, and then tilt the glass. This shows you which oils are thicker by the shorter run in the drop of oil. Hetman 3, as you see in the pic below, is not very thick. I would try Berp. Bio Oil #3 or Monster Oil’s Doc’s Juice.

I suspect the problem is caused by the resonance in the first valve at those frequencies. Possibly pushing the oil away in an area and thus causing the sticking. I would also carefully inspect the piston to see if there exist any rubbing which is different than the other sections of the valve. You might also try marking the length of the valve at 90 degrees, (4 lines) with a Marks-a-lot. Then put the valve in the casing and play the D and F until you get sticking. Pull the valve and see where the marker is worn. This may provide you with some additional clue to the problem. You may have a section of the valve or casing which is below the minimum valve/casing clearance. Then you would need to decide how to proceed to correct the problem.
Ron


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Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[etc-etc]

To diagnose, extend the leadpipe out, play the same notes as resonant with the horn, and see if sticking continues. If sticking stops, it would be due to one of:
1) a pressure node that coincides with the valve tubing, making the valve move slightly sideways when the note is played, or
2) sympathetic vibration of a piece of brass that is stuck in the valve port, slide tube or valve tube knuckle and lifts up when the note is played. I had once such a piece of brass in a valve knuckle of a new Yamaha 6000 series trumpet. The valve got almost "locked" on re-insertion; upon looking up, the piece of brass was discovered and removed; no problems since.

This odd situation would be more likely happen if the valve is borderline sticking in absence of sideways pressure.

[HERMOKIWI]

Thanks for the input so far.

There are no distinguishing marks on the valve. No wear marks or scuffing. It looks normal in every way. It looks the same as the other valves.

Because the problem is inconsistent this trends against there being a mechanical cause with a piece of brass stuck in the valve port, slide tube or valve tube knuckle lifting up when the note is played because that would occur every time I play these frequencies.

The thing that makes the most sense is some connection to the resonance in the first valve at the troublesome frequencies. However, that is not going to change. So, I have to come up with something that neutralizes that effect.

The most logical cause of the sticking seems to be oil dissipation in response to those particular frequencies followed by redistribution of the oil when the frequencies stop (since everything then works perfectly). This is also supported by the fact that I don't have the problem for a few minutes after freshly oiling the valves (fresh oil seems to resist the problem initially). So, the simplest remedy (if it proves to be a remedy) would be to increase the viscosity of the oil. I'll try mixing in some Hetman 5 with my regular valve oil to thicken it and see if that overcomes the problem. I'll report back after I've given it a good test.
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HERMOKIWI

[JayKosta]

Trying holding the horn using different hand positions to see if that makes a difference - something might be flexing and causing the valve to stick.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Andy Cooper]

Is there any chance your outside leadpipe tube brace to the bell has come unsoldered? This would allow all of your mouthpiece pressure to be directed on the wall of the 1st valve casing - perhaps at a slight angle.

You could test this be very very vert carefully applying inline hand pressure to the leadpipe to see if the valve sticks.

If this is unsoldered, the outside leadpipe tube has no support for force to the right of the bell.

[HERMOKIWI]

[HERMOKIWI]

[etc-etc]

For Adams F2 flugelhorn, the leadpipe (acting also as the tuning slide) goes directly into the first valve. This makes it possible for the tuning slide grease to get into the first valve casing.

After greasing, the leadpipe is pushed all the way in to distribute the grease, and then partly pulled out, leaving the now-greased surface of the leadpipe receiver tube open to contact with the oil from the first valve. Once the valves are oiled, the oil will enter the leadpipe receiver tube, diluting the grease. Grease will migrate then back into the first valve.

Solution: clean "as a whistle" the leadpipe receiver tube and apply the grease more towards the middle of the leadpipe, so that any excess grease will not migrate into the first valve.

From https://www.adams-music.com/en/adams/brass/flugel/f2 :

[thehedge]

I had a similar problem with the 1st valve on my Benge 5 Flugelhorn for many years. When playing specific notes, it would stutter when released.

Had it looked at my one if the techs at ACB back when they were in Massachusetts and his solution was using Herman’s #2 but then adding a drop of Wicks PTFE valve oil. The Teflon in the Wicks seemed to keep the Hetmans extra slippery.

He also recommended that if putting a horn away for more than a few days to take the valves out, wipe them down with a paper towel, re-oil them and then put it away. Idea was to keep any moisture away from the valves and freshly oiled before “storing”.

Seems to work for me.

Do think there is possibly something with specific frequencies causing the valves to fixate. But that, as others have noted, could be attributed to increased pressure, either hand or lead pipe or even air pressure(?). I had one instructor (fairly well known) play my Benge 3X MLP and said the horn is fighting the G just above the staff. Said I could possibly have the braces adjusted to reduce the tension or play with loosening the bottom cap on the third valve.

A whole lot of mojo in trumpet science!

[HERMOKIWI]

[etc-etc]

One more possibility, upon viewing the F2 photo:

Top caps seems to be "deep", i.e., have raised walls. A raised wall can catch on the finger button. if either the cap, the valve stem or the finger button is displaced by sympathetic vibration. More likely to happen if valve stem, finger button or the top cap is loose.

[zaferis]

I'm gonna say it's due to more right hand pressure when playing in that register.. first of all why are you up there on a Flugel?

If it's not happening an octave lower (less pressure involved) it leads me to think you're pulling harder on both the valve block and your right hand grip. I'd check hand position (right hand especially).
I pefer that "D" above the staff open anyway (C, D, E, G all open) - better in tune on most trumpets.

Adams Flugels (I have one in my stable) feel like a lighter valve block and are rather long (top to bottom) - I wouldn't be surprised that one could squeeze or pull hard enough to put enough stress on the block to make the valves hang up.
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[RandyTX]

I had pretty much this same problem, with a Kanstul 1525 that I loved to play, but would 'surprise' me by hanging up at the most inopportune times on me.

I had it looked at by multiple 'big name' techs, you know them, as the names that get referenced on this site as go to people for horn issues, pretty much all the time.

Unfortunately, like with mysterious engine or transmission 'klunks' sometimes, when the mechanic can't reproduce it, and the second you start driving the car again, the problem comes right back? This is what it was like that with this flugel. Everybody looked at it, did whatever they thought should be done, or said they didn't see the problem at all, then I'd get the horn back, and it would start doing it again.

Long before I sent if off to techs, I must have tried at least a dozen different valve oils (washing it out thoroughly when changing).. both synthetic and conventional, and the same problem. Nothing fixed it. Finally, sick of it hanging up just when I couldn't afford it to, I went and bought a Yamaha flugel, about half the cost of the Kanstul, and I haven't had a single valve problem since.

So, I think that rules out finger positioning around the valve block, or 'pressure' problems, etc. I still have the Kanstul, and still prefer the sound of that big copper bell, I just can't trust it, so it sits in a case, in the hope of some future date when I find a solution. In the mean time, the Yamaha does the job.. without any 'oops' moments.
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