Small bore fluegel

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

OK, I have another new horn update for you guys.

We have now started production on our new small bore, three valve fluegel horn. The response we've gotten from several play testers is very positive. The tone, response, and intonation of the new fluegel is supposed to be great. As a trickle down from this new design we have come up with a newly designed first branch for all of our current fluegel models. We mounted one of the new branches on a 795 fluegel today and the players that tried it loved it. They were amazed at what a difference it made. We are working on building one of each model with the new branch to see the effects on each one. If all goes as we expect you can expect to see these new and improved fluegels coming out this summer.

Brett

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject:

Brett, when you say ("small bore"), how small are you talking about?

Mike

Dano · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject:

Ha!!!! I was waiting for this thread to start!!
Last time I stopped by "The Boss" had one in his office, raw brass and all!! He was pretty eager to point it out to me as well. Wish I had my GR 66FL with me but I didn't. I won't
make that mistake twice!! Ha Ha !!!
There were 2 things that caught my eye that day. First would be the horn itself, but the second would be the look of pride on Tom Getzens face when he held it up for my inspection. It's hard to imagine that after 1000's of horns produced over 3 generations, these guy's still get fired up over new designs!!
Anybody out there have any ideas on how I can explain to my wife why I need to sell a Getzen Fluegel so I can purchase a Getzen Fluegel???LOL!!!

[ This Message was edited by: Dano on 2004-04-08 17:59 ]

bophead · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject:

The first flugel I ever played was my Jr. High Band director's Getzen Eterna ... this is maybe 1971 or 1972. I thought it a great horn - I wanted to give up the trumpet and become a flugel horn player.
It's a great move coming up with a small bore (small bell too?) flugel. It seems lately they have gotten bigger and more trombone sounding.
When is Getzen coming up with a medium bore trumpet - an updated Martin?

_________________
Earl
Kanstul 1500, CCC930, Burbank Flugel, Selmer K-Mod
Warburton 1XD, 1BC, 1FLX

[ This Message was edited by: bophead on 2004-04-08 17:36 ]

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

I can't remember exactly what bore the new fluegel is. I have it written down in my office and not handy here at home. You gotta cut me some slack on this one. It's a new model and I'm not fully versed on it just yet. To the best of my memory it is a .420" bore. A big shift from the .460" bore on all our other fluegels.

As for what Dan said I have two corrections for him. Try hundreds of thousands of instruments over four generations. A small point I know, but give me (the fourth generation) a little credit.

And why wouldn't we still be proud? After all, every horn that goes out the door has our name on it. I feel safe speaking for everyone in the family when I say that that means a lot to us.

Finally, what do you mean by "medium bore". Since each company is a little different simply going with the term medium doesn't tell you much. As of right now we have four different bore sizes for our trumpets. They are .459", .460", .462", and .464". By this standard a medium bore Getzen would be somewhere around .461"

Brett

bophead · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject:

Sorry to have been vague; I was thinking .453 'ish'

Tom LeCompte · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:15 am Post subject:

Hi Brett-

I think people want to know if "small bore" meant something around .415 or something around .450 (like a small bore trumpet). Without wanting to get into a flamewar about the true meaning or meaninglessness of bore size, I think it's fair to say that flugels tend to group themselves into bores around .415 and bores around .460, and most players (including me) have a definite preference for one or the other. Whether it's .415 or .420 I think is enough to answer the question.

Just out of curosity, I will be near Elkhorn mid-summer. Is it possible to see the factory?

Cheers,

Tom

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Just to set the record straight, I wasn't saying that the different bore sizes were meaningless. However, the "small", "medium", "medium large", or "large" tags are in regards to trumpets. Every company sets different standards. I once had a player in Germany tell me that our .462" was not large bore. He wanted a large bore trumpet and when I suggested the 3052 (which is .462") he laughed. What he meant by large bore was something around .475". Now that's large bore.

As for our building a smaller bore trumpet around .453" I don't set that happening anytime soon. If anything, it would be something done for the Edwards trumpet line. Considering the very limited market for something like that it would be a better fit with Edwards than with Getzen.

I checked this morning and I was right. The new fluegel is going to be .420" bore. Production hasn't started yet, but we should have some rolling in the next few weeks. Anybody interested just keep your eyes open.

Brett

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:05 am Post subject:

Thanks Brett. Will the new flugel have a 3rd slide trigger?

mike

Trptbenge · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:16 am Post subject:

Brett,

I am anxious to try the new Flugelhorn when it is out. It seems that the smaller bore flugels give you a better sound and control. My favorite flugel so far is Kanstuls 1525. It has a dark, beautiful sound. Please keep us informed when it will be coming out.

Mike
_________________
It's the sound that makes the difference!

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

I'm not completely certain, but I think the new fluegel will be similar to the 895 Eterna fluegel. It won;t come standard with a third slide trigger, but one will be available as an option.

I'm going to check with our sales manager and see if one of the new fluegels will be making the trip to Denver for ITG. That will probably be the time of the official unveiling.

Brett

Tom LeCompte · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject:

Hi Mike-

The thing about bore sizes is that they are measured at only one point in the horn. (the valve cluster) If you look at most flugels, the valve cluster is only inches away from the mouthpiece, very unlike a trumpet. The reason that small bore horns have a small number is not because their bore is small throughout the horn; it's that the bore is more conical than a trumpet's and is growing through the horn. Large bore (.460 or so) horns have a more cylindrical trumpet-like bore.

Most players exhibit a strong preference for one or the other. The large/cylindrical ones tend to play more like a trumpet than the small/conical ones, and this is viewed as a strength by the people who like them, and a weakness by those who don't. The sound is different, and I hesitate to describe the difference in words, lest people get offended. At the risk of irritating people in one or both camps, I think the small ones move towards a more French horn-like sound, and the large ones towards a more trombone-like sound.

My experience is also that the large bore players often get a flugel mouthpiece that matches the rim of their trumpet mouthpieces. Small bore players tend not to.

I have never seen a 4 valve small flugel. I suspect that this is because the valve section must have a constant bore, so it adds a cylindrical section. This works out okay with a cylindrical horn, but is more problematic with a conical bore, because you are essentially adding a cylindrical section in the middle of it. (This is why some flugels have such uneven response, and may be why a really, really good flugel is harder to find than a really, really good trumpet) Adding 4 valves of cylinder makes this problem even worse.

There are two schools of thought about the instrument, and I'm pleased that Getzen is catering to both schools.

Cheers,

Tom

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Tom:

I couldn't have put it better myself. The thing with a fluegel horn is that the difference in tubing size has one of the most rapid changes of any instrument. It goes from very small at the receiver to very large at the bell throat. This change takes place through out the entire length of the instrument. This is unlike a trumpet where the bore of the tubing is pretty much the same from receiver, through the slide tubes and valve section, and even into the bell stem. Generally, the larger bore fluegels are preferred by trumpet players because they play more like a trumpet. Unfortunately, this also means that they sound more like a trumpet and loose some of that "fuegel" sound.

As for the 4 valve small bore fluegel from what I have been told that is not neccesary. The way it was explained to me was that small bore fluegels have fewer intonation issues than do their large bore brothers. This eliminates the need for a fourth valve to correct the built in intonation problems found in first and third valve combinations. Right or wrong that is what I was told.

Brett

tomterriff · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:26 am Post subject:

Tom,

I think Cortois makes (or made) a small bore 4 valve flugelhorn. I had one once and loved the sound and playability of it but never used the 4th valve and got tired holding it up so I switched to a 3 valve Cortois. Now it seems that the 4 valve models are pretty hard to find. I guess I didn't know what I had at the time.

davo · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:11 am Post subject:

Brett,

Please explain what a "first branch" is. I may be only one who is curious as others may know what this means. I'd also like to know how this new first branch affects tone and intonation.

Thanks,
Dave

lonelyangel · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:50 am Post subject:

I am no expert but I think I know some of the answers to Davo's question.

The first branch is the front bow of the flugel. It is the section of tubing which runs from the valve section, then down around the 180 degree bend and back towards the join with the bell of the flugel. There is usually a joint covered by a ferule (ring of metal) where the first branch meets the start of the tubing which runs around the back bow and then on to the bell (usually one piece of tubing).

It is crucial in the design of the flugel because it is where the instrument really starts to become conical (the short leadpipes on flugelhorns being virtually cylindrical). Just as with a trumpet lead pipe, the speed of the taper on the first branch has a big effect on the way the horn feels, responds and sounds. Also the angle of the bend - more rectangular vs more single radius - can alter the resistance in the horn.

All the best. Noel.

davo · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:20 am Post subject:

Thanks, Noel. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Dave

connloyalist · Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:25 am Post subject:

I am intrigued about what you said about the small bore having fewer intonation problems than the large bore... Is this specific to flugelhorns (perhaps related to the amount of conical tubing) or does it extend to other instruments?

Regards, Christine

Tom LeCompte · Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:29 am Post subject:

Hi Tom,

I checked Coutois' web site, and sure enough, you're right: they have a small bore 4-valve:

Bugle Sib - Professionnel - 156R - 4 pistons
Perce 10,50 mm.
4° coulisse donnant une quarte.
Pavillon cuivre rose 170 mm, colonne air directe.
Livrée avec étui luxe soft et embouchure B 1 1/2C.

If I can still read French, it says that the 4th valve slide moves you down a fourth, has a high-copper bell, direct air column, and comes with a soft case and mouthpiece. 10.50 mm is .413". The bell is almost 6-3/4".

I've played some 4-valve horns a little bit, and didn't care for them. (Yes, it's possible that I would grow to like them, but I don't think so) They seemed front-heavy to me, and while playing the low D 4th valve seemed natural, playing the low C# 2 and 4 seemed very unnatural.

Cheers,

Tom

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

The description of the first branch above is correct. It is very crucial to the play of a fluegel horn. Why, I'm not certain. I just know that it does. The new branch has a slightly different taper, thickness, and bend I believe. The biggest affect it has is on the intonation of the horn. It also give the fluegel a better blow. Again, that is what I am being told by players that have tried this new branch on our existing fluegels.

Brett Getzen