Besson 609/Kanstul

oldblow · Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:22 pm Post subject:

What are the identification points of a Kanstul factory Besson 609, and has anybody played both the B609 and the K610?
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Felton (Butch) Bohannon

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

I know little about the besson other than I picked one up at the shop one day,played a few notes on it and comment that it felt stuffy and weak sounding.Please keep in mind that my time was very brief with this horn so maybe a different mouthpiece combination might have made a difference.Also I did not ck the valve alignment so I can't really speak if this was a good Besson or a bad one.

On the other hand I own a Kanstul 610 that I bought at Washington music for $330 bucks.Horn sound really solid and valves have a nice action to them.

A lot of people complain about the water key locations.For me it gives the horn a bit of nostalgic character and I have grown accustomed to it.

The K 610 does have a brighter sound to it much like the Getzen Eterna Severision(sp)models do so if your looking for a horn with a dark rich tone to it this is not the horn for you.

[ This Message was edited by: camel lips on 2004-04-21 17:34 ]

oldblow · Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Camel Lips! I read the Kanstul 610 review remarks, and picking up on the notion that it is made from leftover Besson parts with possible modifications led me to wonder if the two horns are comparable in any way.

Many years ago, I started on an L A Ambassador that was only slightly used at the time. In 1963, I moved to a Recording, and I remember the real pleasure that came with playing it over other horns. Right now, the Olds crowd is paying pretty good money for anything that claims not to leak. I'm thinking hard about Getzen Super Deluxe, simply because I remember how beautiful one looked that was behind me while I was in the French Horn section at a band festival.

In any event, those of you who own a K610 have really piqued my interest in that horn, and I might try to get Jack K to set me up an account. I'm an extreme comebacker, and I've got to work my wife into the idea, while making it appear that I'm being conservative.

drdoct · Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject:

I'm almost 100% sure you can identify the Kanstul made Besson 609's by the signature "K" on the bell. If it aint got the K then I sure wouldnt pay ;0)

tom turner · Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject:

Yes,

SOME Besson "Internationals" were made here in the states for Boosey & Hawkes (owner of the Besson label) by Kanstul. Frankly, we probably wouldn't have a Kanstul make today except for the fact that Zig landed a HUGE committment from Besson that began, in 1983 when the Burbank Trumpet Company was started by Zig Kanstul. It allowed the "tiny little company that could" to grow and go! In '84 Donald Benge became a partner for a while at "Burbank" . . . then finally Zig bought him out and re-formed as Kanstul!

It can probably safely be said that we wouldn't have a Kanstul brand today without that 1983 order from Boosey for Zig to build the famous "F. Besson - Paris" trumpet that Zig made in California! Heck, who better to build a F. Besson than the former Benge factory manager . . . for the Benge trumpet is the most faithful recreation of the original F. Besson . . . but not made with the legendary terrible inconsistencies of the original F. Bessons!!!

HOWEVER . . . in other parts of the world Besson has used other plants to make their horns for them SO I would safely assume that other companies have also been contracted to build "Internationals" too!

When Kanstul lost the contract a couple of years ago I've heard from several people that Kanstul had to downsize their staff. However, they retained the most skillful workers and made the decision to get out of the student market. This is a shame because the KANSTUL 610 is, IMHO, today's version of the Olds Ambassador of old . . . simply the best student (highly affordable) trumpet made today!

I too heard that the 610 was created to use up the parts left over from the "Besson" 609 . . . but I don't know for sure.

My e-mails to Boosey were completely ignored when I tried to find out who is doing their contract work today. I don't think they want people to know.

BTW, the Kanstul 700 trumpet IS basically the 610 also . . . only with other enhancements I've learned. Nawwwww, it ain't a sub-$500 horn anymore but STILL it is a very good value and it doesn't have the #@#$#%@% spit valve of the 601.

I've learned from Jack Kanstul that one reason Kanstul chose to get out of the student market is because within a year or so "all student horns will be built in China." If this is true it will surely decimate all the American companies that focus on bottom-end trumpets . . . for the American Union worker isn't a virtual slave of the state like he is in China. That country owns the raw materials, moves the materials on their own vehicles, assembles 'em with their own horribly paid workers and then ASKS American manufacturers what THEY should charge the American manufacturers to build the horns!

Right now e-bay is flooded with Chinese crap horns that cost virtually nothing and are worth even less. This will change as China brings the talented free-world manufacturing managers and experts over there to set up the world-class CNC machines and trains their workers to replace ours. After they crank out a zillion or so they should get fairly good at it . . . at least for a people who work based almost soley upon their pride and integrity, but without the financial incentives to excel.

It is happening in most sectors of American manufacturing, including the furniture business that I'm in! Many American companies would rather continue to do design and R&D work here . . . and supervise the MANUFACTURE of their products in a Chinese factory, rather than go out of business altogether.

Heck . . . maybe Boosey has taken their student line production to China already. If so, maybe this might be the reason why Kanstul lost the contract AND whey they aren't talking about it at Boosey!

In the meantime it appears that the American companies are re-focusing their efforts to build the best horns out there . . . and that ain't bad!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

oldblow · Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject:

drdoct, I played a gig at the Moose Lodge in Griffin in 1957, and left my Ambassador in the parking lot by mistake. When I drove back over there from Jackson, late on Sunday afternoon, it was still there, sitting upright, and not squashed or stolen.

Tom T, don't get me started on foreign manucature. A college friend of mine used to own an outfit called "Storehouse." He still makes lighting fixtures and such in China, India, and the Phillipines, and assembles the parts in a shop in Buckhead. Those folks live in dorms, on the job, and sleep eight inches above and below another worker, on shelves. He wants me to design a line of southern Piedmont furniture that he can have made over there. I put my chop sticks down and pick up my fork whenever he starts that conversation.

We have to reinvent the American economy with new companies devoted to supplying the knowledgeable buying public with products they understand and want to use.
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Felton (Butch) Bohannon

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

I just think this is a good time to voice our stance on the whole Chinese thing.

I personally garauntee that the Getzen Company will not ever, as long as a Getzen is in charge, import a horn from China and sell it as our own. If that means that our student market dries up, so be it. We are commited to building the best, American made instruments we can and that will never change.

I personally think that the use of Chinese instruments is very short sighted. It is selling out the future of the industry for the sake of quick gains in the short term.

Brett Getzen