Brushed finish and tone

2toneTerri · Regular Member Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 26

Will a "Brushed" or "Scratched" finish affect the sound of a horn. I have a laquer Bach 43 but i have always loved the brushed finish look. If I get a brushed finish done to my horn will it effect its tone? And how much does this process usual cost? Thanks Guys
Tyler

_dcstep · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject:

A brushed or shot finish is merely scratching the surface of the brass or plating. If it makes any difference in tone it would be very small. There IS a difference in tone between raw brass, silver plate, gold plate and lacquer (slight it may be, but you can hear it on most horns). If there is a difference between a brushed lacquer horn and a clear lacquered horn, I'm pretty sure that it'll be much less than the difference between a silver plated horn and a lacquered horn.

I have not A/Bd a horn with the only difference being a scratch finish vs. a polished finish, so the above opinion is based on logic and experience comparing raw, lacquer, silver plated and gold plated horns of the same model. Maybe someone like Mr. Lawler has actually compared to identical horns. If so, I'd differ to the person with actual experience.

Dave
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Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
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2toneTerri · Regular Member Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 26

Can anyone recommend where I can get the scratched finish put on my Bach and how much it will cost?
Appreciate it.
Tyler

[ This Message was edited by: 2toneTerri on 2004-05-04 22:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: 2toneTerri on 2004-05-04 22:54 ]

surfhorn · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 7:52 pm Post subject:

The Concept TT brushed gold has one hell of a gorgeous tone!

jophst · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 8:04 pm Post subject:

It shouldn't make any difference in sound ... as the sound is produced on the inside of the bell ... where the finish isn't brushed. Maybe maybe at the end ot the bell though if it is brushed on the inside.

Although not everyone will agree, I would say that the finish would make a larger difference in the tone of the trumpet ... lacquer giving a darker sound than the silver.

To answer the question at hand, my take is that the brushed finish is purely cosmetic and should not effect the way the horn resonates.
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hose · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject:

I've had/have both satin gold and brushed gold and they both started out as raw brass (while dialing in the horn). A person would have to be neurotic to hear any difference. Go for it.........After thinking about that statement, we ARE trumpet players.....

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[ This Message was edited by: hose on 2004-05-04 23:43 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hose on 2004-05-04 23:48 ]

veldkamp · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject:

I didn't hear any difference between raw brass and brushed gold. I had one of my former horns brushed, there was no silver plating layer or copper layer before the gold layer was put on to it due to the brushed underground.

(sorry for my english...)
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tom turner · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:21 am Post subject:

Hi,

The scratched lacquered finish shouldn't affect the tone. This IS one problem you should be aware of before investing in a brushed lacquer horn. I'll first detail the problem, then offer a cool "scratched" solution . . .

The only drawback to the scratched lacquered finishes is cosmetic. The trade-off to get that killer look today is how the horn will look in the long term . . . and the look will go from stunning to ugly in a relatively fast time. Here's why:

The scratches in the finish that give it the "look" result in little microscopic "deep canyons" that cannot be totally filled and sealed by the thicker lacquer. Those deeper areas will begin to darken and discolor in time, much like a Jo-ral brushed copper bubble (Harmon) mute does. Eventually the lacquer will begin to come off in large patches too.

Such is the trade-off in looks, in the long run, to get the "look" in the short term with brushed lacquer.

THE BRUSHED SOLUTION . . .
A better alternative to the brushed lacquer look is to consider a brushed goldplated horn!!!

The gold is applied to the brushed horn over the base metal of silver. Since the silver and gold bond to the brass underneath it, there are no unsealed areas to cause the inevitable discoloration and flaking problems of the brushed lacquer finish.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

_dcstep · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:15 am Post subject:

Speaking of cosmetics, is it only me, but do others notice that satin silver seems to show fingerprints more than polished silver? Also, it seems harder to clean up.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

_dcstep · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:19 am Post subject:

maynard-46 · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:46 am Post subject:

I've worked with players that had the scratched/brushhed lacquer finish and, after a while, where there is contact with the hands/fingers, the finish returned to a smooth, normal lacquered finish....almost like it got worn away. Same thing happens with the scratch/brushed goldplate...maybe even more so!

BW
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

2toneTerri · Regular Member Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 26

Could someone tell me how much the process of "scratching" usually costs?
Is getting it done in gold really worth the extra money?
Thanks yet again
Tyler

[ This Message was edited by: 2toneTerri on 2004-05-05 11:30 ]

hose · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:23 am Post subject:

maynard-46 wrote:
I've worked with players that had the scratched/brushhed lacquer finish and, after a while, where there is contact with the hands/fingers, the finish returned to a smooth, normal lacquered finish....almost like it got worn away. Same thing happens with the scratch/brushed goldplate...maybe even more so!

BW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no experience with the durability of brushed lacquer. You might want to consult with someone who has been dealing with plating for a number of years. ie, Lawlertrumpets.com.

I think the durability of the finish has to do with the quality of final application and maybe even the prep work. I've had gold plated horns from two different plating companies and I think there was a marked difference that showed in about a year. Roy Lawler has been dealing with different platings for many years and would have some very good input.

A good gold plating will cost approximately $650 on a raw brass horn! Only the payor can decide if it is worth it. Gold looks sensational. After two gold horns... my newest horn is silver.
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Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
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Kanstul cornet

L&D · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:47 am Post subject:

RE: Cost

Kanstul did Ambassador cornet for $225: $175 for stripping, dents, relacquer, etc., plus $50 for scratch finish (extra labor) prior to spraying the lacquer. They asked that I send the horn to examine so as to determine what is to be done, and to set a firm price. Nice folks, nice work.

hose · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:01 pm Post subject:

Tyler,

One thing to take into consideration when plating a used horn. After it is polished and ready for any plating or lacquering, EVERY little blemish and/or ding or imperfection will show in certain lighting. And even though many dents/dings can be removed without taking the horn apart, there is sometimes evidence of a blemish or dent removal when the horn is polished to the extent that it takes to apply a nice finish. That's why the technician will probably want to see the horn before quoting you a price. The prep work on a used horn can be time consuming.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

2toneTerri · Regular Member Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 26

Thanks Hose.. I understand exactly what you are saying
My Bach 43 is in very good condition so I don't think that dents will be an issue.
I called Kanstul and asked about the price. I got a estimate of anywhere from 50- 150 depending on how much time will be needed. Since i doubt little, if any, prep work, ie removing dents, will have to be done, the price should stay relatively low. The man on the phone, whos name I can't recall, ( it wasn't Zig)
Jokingly said that my Bach would be " Very Very expensive to brush" ( since it wasn't a kansul)