Kind of a ebay rant and question

[camel lips]

I like to sell a horn on ebay from time to time but more so I like to buy horns on ebay.

I am getting a little discouraged latley trying to buy horns because most of the horns I bid on go for a LOT more than I feel they should bring.

Part of the reason for that is because people bid way too early on horns and drive the price up.

Why in the world would someone start bidding on horn with 8 days left in auction?

What brought this up was I was looking at a nice bobby shew flugal and it is already up to $800 bucks and has 8 days left.

Such as life.Now back to your regually scheduled programing.

[Mouse]

IMHO, other than walking into a dealer, one will pay top dollar for eBay horns. It's a great place to sell, but a poor place to buy! Just too many people with too much money regularly searching on eBay. And, whoever is willing to pay the most gets the horn. Hard to get a bargain, and then you don't even know exactly what you are getting until it arrives.

Now, I can't wait for my eBay purchase to arrive. Should tomorrow! LOL
_________________
There are always new mountains to climb!

YTR8335RGS
YTR6345
1956 Olds Super Trumpet

[nacog]

I have bought and sold a lot trumpets and cornets on ebay and yes, a bargain is hard to find, although I still think prices are lower than what you would find in a music store. You do sometimes find bargains when the owner takes bad photos and doesn't describe what he has very well but of course you are taking more of a risk in those situations. The best place for bargains is in the "buy-it-now" auctions where the owner doesn't know what he has but that involves a lot of luck in getting to it first. Some months ago somebody picked up a vintage Martin Committee for $70 that way. Personally think the bargains are found in getting horns that there is not too much buzz around but are outstanding horns anyway.
I think the Reynolds professonal models (Contempora, Argenta and Professonal) are way undervalued and I think a nice Olds Ambassador for $100 to 150 is a fantastic value. The pre 1970 King Horns often don't get the due they deserve and I'm surre there are others that could be added to this list. If you looking to find a New York Bach Strad for cheap it probably won't be on Ebay but there are a lot of nice horns out there that not too many people know about.

[Tom LeCompte]

I'm a little confused as to why early bidding drives the price up. Ebay is set up for "fire and forget" bidding, isn't it? Isn't the idea that you pay what the second-highest bidder bid, plus a nominal offset like $25 or $50? (But in no case greater than your maximum) Bidding lower won't reduce the amount you pay (but it will reduce the probability you will win the item), and bidding higher won't increase the amount you pay if you would have won otherwise: i.e. if the top two bids are $800 and $1000, the $1000 bidder will pay $825 (or $850, I forget which), whether he bid $900, $1000 or $10,000.

In this model, the only way an early bidder will drive the price up is if your maximum price depends not only on the item, but also the item's bid history. That is, you have to say, "I'd rather not buy this horn at all if it cost more than $1000 - unless, of course, there have been at least 8 bidders on it. Then I'll go to $1200."

Am I missing something?

[Mouse]

Yeah, it's the "buy it nows" that can be a bargain. I'm still kicking myself for not executing a "buy it now" when I saw it at 8:00 AM and it was gone when I looked at 9:30! I've seen many items sell for more than the initial 'buy it now" price which disappeared at some point.

I can't justify by logic, but I agree with camel lips that early bidding results in higher sales prices. I think that last minute bids are lower, overall, when the price is still low. Too me, it's a psychology issue not a logic issue.
_________________
There are always new mountains to climb!

YTR8335RGS
YTR6345
1956 Olds Super Trumpet

[mark125]

The way I see it, if I go ahead and put in my proxy bid for the maximum I am willing to pay with 7 or 8 days to go then I have given someone else something to shoot at and outbid me.
In an auction you will always find someone who is willing to pay more for an item than you think it is worth just to outbid someone else's maximum proxy bid.

If I just wait until the last minute and determine if the price is at or below what I am willing to pay, then I will put in a proxy bid for the most I am willing to pay and hope that it is enough to outbid someone else's proxy bid.

If my bid is higher then I hope that they don't have time to outbid me, If I bid with only seconds to go.

I will almost guarantee you that you will be outbid if you go ahead and place your maximum proxy bid with even just a few minutes to go. You have to wait until the last minute.
I have found that an item with only one or two bids with a few minutes to go usually has something like a seller with zero or very low feedback rating or "money orders only" or there may be concerns with the item.

I never bid without asking questions and getting a satisfactory response from the seller.

I think people just like to outbid other people for fun. That may be why the price will go higher than the item may be worth.
I would rather go into a music store and pay a little more to be able to lay my hands on what I am buying and to be able to play a trumpet or whatever I am trying to buy.

Mark

[_Happy Canuck]

The other 'problem' about bidding early is that it shows another bidder that there is interest, and normally will push the price higher. Sort of like "Well, gee, if they are bidding, it must be valuable!".

The best deals I've won are when there is minimal action and I bid at the very last minute (yes, I know it's sniping)!

The fun of auctions!!



_________________
Bill

Olds Mendez, Recording, Super, Special & Ambassador trumpets/GR 65M
Olds Opera cornet/Sparx 4B
Olds Flug
Schilke MII trumpet

[ This Message was edited by: Happy Canuck on 2004-05-09 12:10 ]

[supportlivejazz]

With over 500 transactions, I have a bunch of thoughts on this subject....

1. Although there are some steals with BIN ( I paid $450 for a nice Bach New York Strad at 2AM from an Alaskan seller of general antiques ) I have most frequently been burnt doing the BIN because I took no time to ask, and get answers to, questions about the specifics of condition

2. I have almost always bought well and made a profit on what I have purchased when I have done my research and asked questions. I almost always buy and then resell on ebay and still make money and get a chance to try out dozens of trumpets that you just don't find for sale in all but the biggest dealer outlets.

3. I rarely place my high bid early because I always hope to find that only one lonely bidder actually saw that large bore Committee that was poorly descrbed and mis-spelled and named wrongly. So, I wait til the last few seconds and!!!!! bid right along with the other 20 folks who were wishing the same thing. The one who was least optimistic always wins... because he bids the most. What a shocker.

4. I would list the deals from the last month or two, but, I may be reselling some of them, and I know how nutz some of us get with folks who make a profit on buying and selling these sacred trumpets. Couple of examples though.... Olds Super 1939 in excellent condition for $405. Conn 8B for $95 plus $65 in ding removal. 1950's F. Besson Brevette $550. The list is long.

5. The Bach Strads and Martin Committees have a known value and really can't be won cheap unless one is spotted being sold BIN by someone who just has not a clue. If you are waiting and watching for that, you may not live long enough or have a lip left to play it with.

6. Enough for now.... I do agree whole heartedly concerning auction outcomes, winning or loosing, etc. "Such is life" for sure. In the words of my personal hero and favorite philosopher and lifestyle expert, Geofrey Lebowski... "Gutters and strikes". The dude abides.

[ This Message was edited by: supportlivejazz on 2004-05-09 12:13 ]

[bdev]

Here's another reason why it's not a good idea to place an early bid (maximum you want to pay) on an item. Another seller might add the same item you're bidding on (for less money, maybe a BIN ) just after you placed a bid on the first one. What do you do now? Do you buy the 2nd item and hope you get outbid on the 1st? Something to think about.
_________________
Schilke B1L / GRe65M/e65S
Yamaha B.Shew Flugel / GRe65FD
Olds Super Trumpet (LA 1946) GRe65MX
Reynolds Emperor Trumpet (1961)
Bach Strad 37 Trumpet
Holton 25 Cornet / Bach 6
MDT Morrison Trumpet (wind controller)

[FatPauly]

Here's a response you probably didn't expect...sometimes I bid early on an item to keep it easily accessible from my my.ebay page. Items I am bidding on appear ahead of those on my watch list, and I would rather not scroll!

I will also drop a bid on an item using the logic, "If I win it at that price great. If not, the other guy wants it more." Then I don't think about it till its over. Thats how I got my Olds Ambassador cornet - threw down a bid of something like $60 for a late LA model when it was sitting at about $25 with several days to go. Forgot I bid on it till I got an email from someone saying "Contratulations, would you like to sell me the case that comes with the horn?" Pretty funny.

Generally, if I really want an item and think it will be contested, I just snipe.

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

[supportlivejazz]

PAUL.. I think you can change your preferences in your bid/watch list so that the items you are watching will appear first and yoiur bids will appear after them.

I sometimes bid early but low on items I know I am going to chase as opposed to ones that I am just watching to see how high they go. That way, I know what to let go of when it gets too rich and what to try and grab at the last minute. It's all just guess work. I like to excercise my denial muscles and imagine that everyone else fell asleep and won't bid at the end... or maybe I am the only one who is smart enough to grab this beauty. When, in fact there a a gazillion people all over the world glued to ebay all the time. It is huge.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

[oldblow]

As the others have mentioned, Camel (Dave?), it's tactics, according to the tactical situation. If a really creamy-looking item comes up, and the seller answers question quickly and accurately (a fading art), it is sometimes best to post a strong bid early. If you are a well-know bidder, it might deter the faint of heart from entering the fray. This is a pretty good tactic if you have previous experience with similar or identical items. If your judgement of the item seems justified, it doesn't hurt to through an extra bid over the top, just as the auction ends. especially if the bids have been slow, and you are sitting there thinking the snipers might not shoot. Be assured, they will.

But marking items of real interest with minimal bids is a tactic that many I've used in the past. Again, if the quality of the item seems supported by the seller's cooperation about answering questions, you can always lob a bid over the top at the last minute, again, to beat the snipers.

But if you are like me, the killer situation is when you have committed to an item with eight days to go, and one several times the quality appears with a low BIN price and you dare not spend the money!

While we are on the topic, I've had some concerns lately about sellers who just don't answer questions, or sound like they have just had a pint of cheap hooch when they do answer. I'm learning to appreciate people who know how to describe horns, who anticiapte the buyer's questions, and still offer the horn at a sporting starting price. That lets the market work the way it should.

[Cheng]

This is simple.

What it is called is a FREE MARKET. If someone is willing to pay a price that you feel is too much it doesnt matter when the bid was made. All that matters is whether you are willing to pay more than that.

[camel lips]

Cheng,

I agree with you 100%

My point is this .

Those same people that are bidding early are the ones shooting themselves in the foot by getting the bid close to its "real" selling price.

I suspect that many sellers have multiple accounts over on Ebay and send in ghost bids to get the price up.

I would love to have one of the bobby shew flugel's but the difference in a used bobby shew for $800 and a new Conn vintage one is only about $400 bucks so I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

[trumpetmike]

I have been known to place a bid early, usually due to my knowledge that I am either going to be away for when it comes close to the end, or if I know I am coming up to a hectic work week and I realise that the chance of me checking Ebay every few hours is very low.
If I do this, I place a very low bid, but put my highest amount as that which I would place even if it were in the last few seconds of the auction. If someone else wants it more than me - let them have it - that's what an auction is.

[atom_anderson]

Sometimes I place an early bid to help determine what the reserve is. It's a real drag to really want a trumpet but no matter how much you bid, you don't break the reserve because others aren't bidding.

Also, it's kind of fun to bid, say, $10,000 on a Monette knowing that your safe if there is a reserve!

-Atom