Lip Scaring/White ring

Musicman · Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject:

I wanted to get some info from any knowledgeable person(s) to the lasting effects on playing with respect to pressure rings, white rings, lip scares...whatever you want to call it. I have various students that have been asking about them and to be honest, I don't know of the real, scientific answer. It is obvious to the cause of the scarring. I am looking for a specific answer really. Once a student develops a scar ring on his lips, corrects the bad excess pressure he was using, but still has the permanent scarring, what scientific effect would that have on his chops vibrational ability, blood flow, etc?

patrick32378 · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 1:36 am Post subject:

No one seems to be replying and I'm no scientist...but (haha)

Every player I know...well, every player who plays a lot...has some sort of callased area be it permenant or while doing heavy playing. Miles davis had some nasty marks on his lips. I have never heard of this becomming a problem (anyone?). I would think that as long as there is no severe swelling/scarring on the part of the lips that comes into contact with the cup of the mouthpiece, that there is not much to be concerned about. Most scarring/swelling I've seen occurs where the lips come into contact with the rim. I am also skeptical about scarring occuring from too much pressure. Rather, doesn't it form from the lip rubbing against the metal rim. That would be some serious pressure that would produce a scar..unlikely.

But like I said ...I'm no scientist..I may be way off base. Sceintific thinking about my lips just gives me Chop-hypochondria haha.

[ This Message was edited by: patrick32378 on 2004-05-19 04:42 ]

Musicman · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:09 am Post subject:

As Arnold Jacobs said, when he is performing, he wears his performers hat, and when he is analyzing, he puts on the analizer hat. I don't think there is anything wrong with delving into anything scientific with respect to embochure or any other aspect of playing. I think the word scientific gives any musician a little bit of a scare. But really it is the advanced knowldedge of how our boby mechanics work while we are playing our instrument. It is like having the driver of a race car have the same knowledge as the pit mechanic. Knowledge isn't the enemy, it is what we do with that knowledge that either screws us up, or helps us expand our understanding of how things work.

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I have met many players that have some type of mark. I for one, have a white ring. And I know that my ring came from poor playing habits when I was a student. Too much pressure, not enough air, muscling things around instead of just relying on the air. I just wanted to be able to truly explain it well to my students.

Again, thanks for taking your time to respond,

Ben

mike ansberry · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject:

Every trumpet player that I know who plays a lot has marks on his lips from the mouthpiece. I consider it a badge of honor. I was backstage at a Severinsen concert. Doc saw me standing there with my wife & he came up & said, "you must play trumpet".
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_dcstep · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 7:21 pm Post subject:

I used to have callouses on my lip from pressure along with callouses on my right pinky finger. The callouses went away when I learned to play with lower pressure. If you'd seen it you'd have called it "scarring", but, in my case, it was just callouses.

Dave
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littlegreg · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:29 am Post subject:

I'm not sure that I would associate lip marks with poor technique. I actually find that the marks appear when I am playing well!

I too have wondered what causes these marks. I don't think it's pressure as they appear in an area that the mouthpiece does not press on. I suppose it could be from the lips sticking to and pulling away from the inside rim of the mouthpiece. Maybe it depends on how much your lips protude into the mouthpiece.

Anyone with any better theories??

John Mohan · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:37 am Post subject:

As several people have already written, marks, white rings, or more on the lips is completely normal for a trumpet player that plays a fair amount.

The more you work, the more it shows. Wayne Bergeron, Maynard Ferguson, Bud Herseth, Doc Severenson, Claude Gordon, myself, (I could go on and on with names) ALL have or had marks such as those you describe.

The best thing an aspiring player can do is to FORGET about his/her lips. Their only purpose is to vibrate, and they'll do that just fine and develop right along with the rest of the machine if the player knows "How to practice, What to practice and When to practice."

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
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Musicman · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject:

Thanks to all for their great posts!

John Mohan · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:16 am Post subject:

Hi there,

I thought you might be interested to know that even after not playing for more than a week for the first time in about 20 years, the "white ring" hasn't disappeared from my upper lip (it was for our honeymoon - took the trumpet with but managed to leave it in its case).

Sincerely,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

Pops · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:36 am Post subject:

Just to talk about the other side.

There have been teachers that did think there was such a thing as too much pressure .

This was addressed by Farkas and Reinhardt to great extent.

When the lips are pinned too much they can't make compression and only more pressure can help to play higher notes.

I partly agree with forget the lips.
Please remember that the teacher who said that "Mr. Gordon" did a successful embouchure change before he himself could forget his lips.

IF they are working fine they should be and are easy to forget. When they are the problem then this is not advisable.

Now please forget about any idea of NO pressure. You will have to use some. The notes just don't sound right without some pressure. But I have literally seen players who bleed from both the lips and gums after they play. That is TOO much pressure.

"I want to stop using mouthpiece pressure."

You can NOT just stop using pressure.

You have to correct the reason that the pressure was needed first.

Then after you have a close set embouchure, good breathing habits and good muscle strength you can work on reducing pressure.

Practice LIP Buzzing. It teaches you how to form your embouchure and makes the lips stronger.

Do the pencil exercise for 3-4 minutes at a time. (Most pressure players can barely do a minute.) This builds muscle and shows you how to contract to play higher with less pressure.

Play at a whisper. This works the lip aperture to aid in pressure reduction.

Then play arpeggios using as little mpc pressure as possible to get used to both the feel and to allow the lips to LEARN how to flex and contract to produce each note. The lips must be closer with no pressure than they are with pressure.

No pressure is NOT an option. LESS pressure is.

The lips produce compression by lip against lip movement. They also can control the aperture by pulling the corners in to play high.

As a pressure player you never allowed your lips to do that (Too much pressure won't let the lips move) so the muscles must be worked first.

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[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-06-18 14:37 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Pops,

I totally agree with most of the things you have said in the above post.

I'm a huge advocate of buzzing (lip buzzing).

As one of the resident "Reinhardt guys" who hangs out here please allow me to clarify Doc's position on pressure.

Doc believed in what he called a "freezing point" that is when foward pressure (your lip pucker towards the mouthpiece) is exactly the same as the backward pressure (the pressure of you pulling the horn into your chops). The two pressures will neutralize each other and reach the 'freezing point".

Doc Reinhardt never said we should press just to press. We press to neutralize, and to keep the all important "legs of the inner embrouchure".

Doc also believed that too little pressure can cause to mouthpiece to shift or float on the chops.

If a player wants to reduce some of the pressure they use, I think that lip buzzing is their best bet.

Chris

Pops · Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:53 am Post subject:

Thanks Chris;
"Doc believed in what he called a "freezing point" that is when foward pressure (your lip pucker towards the mouthpiece) is exactly the same as the backward pressure (the pressure of you pulling the horn into your chops). The two pressures will neutralize each other and reach the 'freezing point". "

That is a great statement. The 2 pressures are equal. When this happens the lips aren't pinned or mangled in any way.

But the people who use 2,3... times more pressure pushing the horn to the face; than the lips do as they are blown towards the mouthpiece are limiting what the lips can do as far as compression, tension and endurance. (On TPIN one poster actually mentioned pulling the hook off of his horn while playing and he didn't consider that too much pressure.) So one sometimes wonders just what other people are thinking.

That is what I consider too much pressure. So I think we are in agreement here.

I play a buzzing embouchure and have since the comeback from my surgery in 89.

Some places that is a dirty word. Nice to hear someone else admit to buzzing.

Take care man.
_________________
Come see the books everyone talks about; "30 Minutes to Better Trumpet Playing", "How the Chops Work". Plus my other 8 books at http://www.bbtrumpet.com

Pops

It is the Smart application of hard work that gets you there.

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-06-19 03:56 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I'm a IIIb downstream type player and I have always strived to play as close to my buzzing embrouchure as possible.

When you are lip buzzing correctly you can do no wrong.

Its practically fullproof.

Chris

sdgtpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 770

do you practice on the buzzing rim toy or not?

shjusa · Regular Member Joined: 10 Jul 2004 Posts: 12

how long does it take for a white ring or whatever it is to go away? i just got one for the first time and dont know what to do about it. for the trime being im just gonna stop.