Embouchure Enquiry

[trumpetmike]

Very recently, one young player I know through one of the bands I tutor attended a masterclass given by one of the UK's most respected "embouchure experts." She is an excellent player already; I have a lot of respect for her playing, even though she is only 18. At the end of the masterclass he came up to her and said "you should change your embouchure." She takes him at his word and goes to her teacher and says "****** says I should change my embouchure."
I haven't heard her sound as bad as she is currently playing for all the time I have known her (about 7 years). Her use of what I would deem excessive pressure has gone up (you can always see where her embouchure has been placed, something which I never noticed beforehand) and her tone quality has hit the floor.
Every time I now see her, she is obsessed with whether her embouchure is exactly in the middle of her face (her teeth are not exactly level, personally I would say that her natural embouchure isn’t exactly centre). When I ask her whether it matters, she always replies “****** says it should be in the middle.”
He is a very well respected player and teacher, I am not as highly regarded (unknown would be closer to the truth!) so why should I know what I am talking about? I can see her reasoning for listening to him, but I really don’t think he has got it right in this case.

I am desperately hoping that she will come out the other end unscathed.

Please note, I am not naming the person who suggested the change, due to his status and reputation.

This has left me quite angry that someone should suggest this to a student that is
a) not their student
b) playing very well already
c) produces a beautiful, full sound
d) has an even sound from F# below the stave to C above it
e) about to enter university

I am after some thoughts as to how (and whether) to bite my tongue when next time she asks whether her pressure mark is in the middle or not, or whether I think that her embouchure is working better or not.
All thoughts on this matter would be welcome.

[_bugleboy]

"******" is wrong. Your friend should disregard his advice. There is no perfect spot to play on. There is only the spot that you choose to develop. Anyplace that you can produce a sound on your lips, you can learn to play there ... and play good! Mendez played on three embouchures.

Centering the embouchure is a simplistic approach for improving a student's playing. It is not based on any sound knowledge of how the embouchure works. This has been proven time and again by players who have had to change their placement due to injury or other factors. They become just as good a player on the new setting as they were on the old. Some players just want to develop a second embouchure and proceed to develop a second one that is as good as the first. Through diligent practice your friend can learn to play on the more centered placement, but the move is unnecessary. She might be better served by applying that same diligence to improving her original placement.

[JackD]

Mike, I'm sure you know by now that I did an embouchure change just before Christmas with a very well respected London player / teacher. I did this following a recommendation I got from another London pro in a consultation lesson I had - my old teacher had just retired.

The embouchure change did kill my tone entirely for a while - I went from having a pretty nice sound to sounding worse than I did when I first started to struggle through 'A tune a day'. It took some time, and a lot of mental endurance (!), but I'm getting to the stage where I'm starting to appreciate the benefits: My endurance is 300 times better than it was, I'm using much much less pressure, and my sound is better (I'm having some problems at the moment, but this is unrelated to the chop change).

So, the embouchure change worked for me, and I'm very glad I did it when I did (the year before my BMus auditions); I changed in ~ November 2003, and in Feb. 2004 I managed to get into Trinity's foundation programme.

... out of interest, did this student change her embouchure with her old teacher, or with the new person?

[trumpetmike]

Charles - thanks for that, you have summed up what I feel very clearly. Nice to know I'm not going mad in my thoughts.

Jack - yeah, many of us have been through embouchure changes, both minor and major. I fully understand that when going through any sort of change like this the sound one produces will change - been there, done that!
She has been going through this change with her current teacher and her teacher for next year, not the guy who suggested the change.
I think what has got me wound up the most is this obsession she now has with playing centrally. It doesn't matter, especially if the teeth are not absolutely straight (and who's are??).

[JackD]

Mike - I'm 100% positive that you know more about this stuff than me! I was just using myself as an example of someone who has had a succesful chop change.

I hope it works out for her.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I think it is in incredibly poor taste to be suggesting embouchure changes in a masterclass setting, regardless of one's level of "expertise". I would be livid.

[David]

It sounds like the only change he recommended was to place the mouthpiece exactly centered?

If so, then it truly is ridiculous advice. Sure If you are way off that is one thing, but almost every player you see will be slightly off center. Heck, I think MF is close to a 1/2 inch off.

[Umyoguy]

Dogmatic teaching methods like the one you describe from the well known teacher tend to bother me, because they disregard the fact that people can be so different. Just because the 18yr old's embouchure isn't "right" doesn't mean it doesn't work, as you described by noting that she has a nice sound, good range, etc.

The only time I would EVER recommend any kind of embouchure would be if the upper/lower lip proportion was out of whack. I find that students who use extreme amounts of either their top or bottom lip end up with pretty major sound and range limitations. Specifically, I find that players who use too much bottom/not enough top don't create full sounds, and players who use too much top/not enough bottom end up with range and pressure issues.

I've seen countless unconventional embouchures sound absolutely phenominal though (anyone who knows Denver Dill know's what I'm talking about!!), and if someone came to me and was playing quite well with an abnormal setup, I would probably go with it. I've never had to go through an embouchure change, but I'm scared silly of affecting someone for the worse and would only resort to a change if absolutely nothing else worked to bring about a desired change.

FWIW Mike, I think you're right on the money with this one.

[cwerickson]

I had a similar thing happen with a student of mine, many years ago. He attended a short music camp, taught by someone with an impressive resume and relative fame, who took it upon himself to change the boy's embouchure. This student had been doing very well in local and regional competitions.. there was nothing at all wrong with his face.

After a couple weeks with this guy, he returned not being able to produce a sound at all. He ended up playing cello for a while, then quit music entirely. And that was a crying shame.

To suggest to someone that they need an embouchure change when you are not their regular teacher is unacceptable. If you run into a student in a masterclass or short term situation that you feel needs to consider the possibility, the thing to do is to contact their teacher or band director and discuss it with them. Nobody should ever take action like that unless they're going to be there to put the pieces back together again.

Best of luck.

Tina

[DaveH]

I do not believe that there is one absolute and "correct" (all others as being incorrect) position of the embouchure.

I believe that a person's overall facial structure has a great deal to do with the "best" placement of the mouthpiece. I suppose there are some extreme placements that could become the subject of discussion/study.

However, IMO, an embouchure change needs to be accomplished under the supervision of someone who know very well what they are talking about, and has good reasons for such a change. And is readily available to assist in seeing it all through.

I often think of some of the all time greats on this instrument, and wonder how many of them experienced this kind of thing?

[StewMuse]

I teach a lot of middle school and high school students, many of whom transfer from other teachers with whom I take exception to their idea of "correct embouchure." Something that's not been discussed is the intent of the student about their music making. Is it "band 'til I graduate HS, then I'm done forever," or is this person sure that they want to be a music major or professional player?

If it's the former, then I don't worry too much about their face unless it's REALLY causing them problems. If they can play, let 'em alone.

On the other hand, I've also had kids that definitely want to go into music, that can play relatively well (for their age) and have had success at their level, but play with embouchures that really don't produce the sound, flexibility, range, and/or strength that will allow them to really be successful in more mature or demanding situations.

These are the hardest to convince that what they're doing is probably (although certainly not absolutely) not going work in the long run. I encourage them to try more conventional methods with the idea that unless you are already a truly superior player with an odd set-up, then you probably aren't the exception to the "rules" of normal playing technique.

It's always very hard for them because they hear themselves slip in ability. Some overcome, some give up and go back to their "old" embouchure. It's always a challenge...
_________________
Dr. Michael Stewart
www.stewmuse.com

My iBooks currently available: Military Bugle Calls, Courting the Upper Register, Building Trumpet Technique, Tuff Keys, CUR II: JAZZ, Trumpet Rounds, Beginning Jazz for Young Trumpeters, Cigars @ Home

[Heavens2Kadonka]

I was also recently told that my embouchure needed to be repositioned: from the lower part of the mouthpiece under my lower lip to the upper part of the mouthpiece above my upper lip. I found that I really, really didn't find it comfortable. However, during the experimentations, I found a second embouchure position, balanced in the direct center of my mouth (strange that it felt as comfortable as the method I had used for almost nine years, which the mouthpiece was under my right nostril, and so far low....)! I have improved my sound and endurance noticably (My self-practices go almost twice as long now, with my center embouchure picking up after my right embouchure goes dead...).

I will say that I had to work much harder than many other trumpet players I've known to get the "mature sound" with the method I had been using. My new private instructor, who spoke to me about my embouchure, said that it was because I used the inside muscles of my lip, instead of the more dominant upper lip muscles that my endurance sometimes suffered. Of course, I didn't completely follow his instruction, but I did find what worked for me....Again! Now, to work on my third octave.... *Shudder*

[trpt.hick]

This clinician (expert or not) must have been fairly young and inexperienced, or otherwise stupid, to tell someone that he could not have time to follow up with to change their embouchure. Quick advice on mouthpiece placement is stupid.

I have given hundreds of masterclasses and clinics and usually have a pretty good idea of what someone might likely need to correct an embouchure. However, my 33 years of university teaching have also taught me that my quick prognosis can be wrong almost as often as it is right. It takes a lot of trial and error and TIME with a student before a secure conclusion can be made about an embouchure.

When I give single lessons or masterclass advice to someone, I might suggest certain exercises that can (unconsciously) correct or strengthen things for embouchure (such as lip bends, pedal tones, etc.). As soon as a student hears any words that make them think that there is a problem with their embouchure, they will automatically become paranoid, or even subconsciously resent or fight any suggestions offered by the teacher.

A good teacher knows how to direct a student towards a goal without making them feel like they are doing something wrong. In fact, I hate it when a teacher tells a student "don't do this, or don't do that." Students much prefer a positive image.......like, "Fine. Now do this." Or, "Good. Now sound like this." (teacher demonstrates)

The clinician may have been correct with his analysis. Who knows? But to not be able to follow through with a student almost always causes more problems than the advice was worth.

Hey, if looking correct (centered, in this case) was the goal, what about Voisin (who played way off to one side)? Andre (who smiles)? Ferguson (whose neck expands in the extreme upper register)? Dizzy?......let's not even go there!

Dave Hickman

[Billy B]

David,

I once had a teacher who would circle the sections that I "was going to have trouble with" before we even began working on a piece. You know what? He was right every time. Look for trouble and you can find it.