Rascism in Jazz

[Boy meets Horn]

Amen to that brother.
_________________
Everyone wants to be the hero but no one wants to slay the dragon (practice).

-Wynton Marsalis

[bophead]

There was an article in the Seattle Times some two years ago about the decline in numbers of afro american students in music programs. This is just after a Seattle area school won the Essentially Ellington Competition in NYC. The premise of the article was that the students who were participating in this schools jazz program have taken several years of private lessons (The leader, Clarence Acox is a co-leader of the SJRO. I would feel it safe to assume he is encouraging his HS players to study with SJRO players.), are all playing prolevel horns and are being well prepared to play at that level. Consider private lessons at 25.00 an hour from 4th grade an intermediate level horn in 5th or 6th grade at 7 or $800.00 a pro level horn in 10th or 11th grade at $1600.00 and maybe a flugel at $1000 - 1200. The oft talked about mouthpiece safari should be good for a couple hundred ... trips to the music store for maybe 200 - $250.00 in method books and Abersolds. Mom and dad have spent close to $14,000.00 on junior's music education - before college. The article went on to talk about the music programs in inner city Seattle in comparison to those schools that feed Garfield and Roosevelt High Schools (they've both done well at Essentially Ellington). Which school system is offering AP music theory, who is trying out for Seattle Youth Symphony. Good things happen in school districts where there is LOTS of money.

[improver]

Ruechel that was a great diatribe unfortunately i think your wrong. i may certainly never no what it is like to be black in this country. but i dont think you have done enough reasearch on the subject. As i have said before Tim Hagins was the first white tpt player ever EVER EVER recorded at Blue Note the biggest label ever in jazz. there has been with out question a corporate racism against the white player.there is no arguement that jazz and bebop are a Black born music . But it is my contention that the overtures of racism have been stronger in jazz then the rest of society. If your going to point to Token hirings by Marsalis and Art Blakey in their illustrious carreer i think its a waek arguement.My guess is you observations come from a lack of experience on the horn. I would like to know Boy meets horns oppinion of Chet Baker as a Hard Core bebop player or bobby Shew as a bebop player next to Feddie or Byrd thx

[improver]

Ruechel that was a great diatribe unfortunately i think your wrong. i may certainly never no what it is like to be black in this country. but i dont think you have done enough reasearch on the subject. As i have said before Tim Hagins was the first white tpt player ever EVER EVER recorded at Blue Note the biggest label ever in jazz. there has been with out question a corporate racism against the white player.there is no arguement that jazz and bebop are a Black born music . But it is my contention that the overtures of racism have been stronger in jazz then the rest of society. If your going to point to Token hirings by Marsalis and Art Blakey in their illustrious carreer i think its a waek arguement.My guess is you observations come from a lack of experience on the horn. I would like to know Boy meets horns oppinion of Chet Baker as a Hard Core bebop player or bobby Shew as a bebop player next to Feddie or Byrd thx

[Boy meets Horn]

I would love to give my opinion. As i said before, i dont really like Chet baker's playing, that doesnt mean he isnt good, he just doesnt do it for me. I love Tom Harell, and you can tell Chet Baker was one of his influences. Bobby Shew is great, I wouldnt put him up there with Freddie, I dont even think Bobby Shew would put himself up there with freddie. Bobby Shew is a great player, and an even better teacher, but i dont think he really made an impact on the way things are played as far as soloing.

The thing to keep in mind is that none of this is about that, the person doing the hiring has a sound in his/her head. If somebody auditions and tries to get hired, but doesnt fit that sound, they wont really want you. Would you really want to hear somebody that sounded like Maynard Ferguson playing lead with the LCJO. I wouldnt think so. But I dont think I would really want to hear Wynton Marsalis playing with a modern day fusion group. It isnt the color difference, its all about style.
_________________
Everyone wants to be the hero but no one wants to slay the dragon (practice).

-Wynton Marsalis

[Ruechel]

IMPROVER: you call Brian Lynch a "Token" hiring???? Do you REALLY believe Blakey, Silver, Prince and a number of other VERY well known musicians would play with anyone but the best??? Brian got the Horace Silver gig over FREDDIE HUBBARD! Not because he's better but because his sound and style fit the band best at the time. Experience on the horn has nothing to do with knowledge of music and the industry. You should re-check your facts. You seem to be one of those "white" dudes who is upset because "white" people FOR ONCE are in a minority group and have to follow "black" people's innovations. That's the way it is. Deal with it. (Actually as i mentioned before, that is the way it has been since day one in almost all forms of popular music) The "black" experience in America created this art form so it is only natural that people of color own this music more intuitively than others - they MADE it. I think i read a thread on improvising and how your own experience fuels your ideas and creativity. BTW, the "white" guys who have mastered this music like Lynch, Douglas, Harrell, Shew, etc. would probably have nothing but great gratitude to all the "black" musicians who have inspired, taught and nurtured them.

There is apparently a young "black" man named Billy Hunter who just became a member of the MET, i believe. This is VERY rare occurence. How many black, classical players do you know? Email Wilmer and he'll tell you. Let's talk about institutionalized racism if you like.

If you don't get the gig, you're not good enough.

That's all i am going to say about it because this thread is becoming less and less about playing the trumpet.

[Boy meets Horn]

I dont think this thread had much to do with trpt playing from the beginning. It had to do with racism in jazz.
_________________
Everyone wants to be the hero but no one wants to slay the dragon (practice).

-Wynton Marsalis

[improver]

Amen to boy meets horn. Man i have a respect for you and i dont even know you. i agree its about the right sound for the job and its about beeing able to play. But all im saying historically it hasnt just been about that.it is a discussion on Racism.I dont have to deal with it. i fully accept its an art form born out of the black culture. to be honest most of my heroes are black. When i was young i wanted to sound like louis not Harry James. Miles and Freddie are my musical heroes. i like Dave Douglas. he is one Technical and creative cat. But Reuchel read some of the reviews he has gotten in NY Stnley Crouch etc. He is a great example of someone who has suffered the brunt of Racism in Jazzin NY. You deal with that dude. Email him he will tell you. Same thing in Basketball the Blacks are better athletes.Michael Jordan said ther were white players who were good players that never had a chance to make his team at Noth Carolina because they were white

[Boy meets Horn]

Improver, I would have to agree with you on that one. Things have come a long way though. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, it was just fifty yrs ago that blacks were segregated. I feel that things like this thread that get people to open up on their opinions is prbly the best way to solving the prblm. I'm glad this topic was brought up.
_________________
Everyone wants to be the hero but no one wants to slay the dragon (practice).

-Wynton Marsalis

[_Old_mod_account]

Edited to retain a semblance of civility.

[tradjazzman]

My.........My.......... quite the interesting subject to fill a rainy boring day here in Central Pa.
Tough topic to talk about I guess. But my honest opinion is I'm sure it exsists to a certain degree in Jazz, as in other things. If a black band leader wants to hire blacks ......hey it's his choice. If it's harder for a white cat to break in ...in certain places,......... well such is life. I do belive it does happen, but it's no big deal. I've seen great all black jazz bands, and great all white jazz bands, and great mixed bands. To each his own. Most of them dont' think twice about it. (in my opinion). But I'm sure it exsits both ways (white and black) depending on the leader. He might want to hire a black or white ....... hey what the hey. It's his choice. But if you can PLAY....... you'll get work. Once the music starts skin color don't mean ****. It's what comes out your horn. If you can play .......YOU'LL WORK.

I live in central Pa and I've been out many times sitting in with the local Black musicians. So I'm lucky. These cats around here are all cool. I remember when I was in my 20's the local black musicians would have jam sessions and they'd really incourage us (yes the white boys) to come out and sit in, and learn. So the Black musicians around here were cool. Even though man ........ most of us were really hacking away (lol). They (the older Black musicians) just incouraged us over and over. It was great.

I remember about 17 years ago I had a jazz gig and hired this young black tenor player who I sat in with at a local jazz club jam session. His name was Tim Warfield. Of coure now he's playing with the big jazz players. Is it because he's black?? Humm??? Nawww the reason he is playing with them. and I'm not, is because he's freakin 1000x better than me. (LOL). But he was cool back then before he made it up to the big leagues and he's still cool. Heck I see him at some gigs with Nicholas and I say hello. I doubt he even remembers my name, but he always says hello and asked how everthing is going. Now would Nicholas Payton hire a white tenor player if he was as good as Tim? **** I don't know. That's Mr Payton's choice.

Me?? Well I started playing traditional jazz (Dixieland jazz) about 15 years ago. Hey ??? Isn't that mostly corny white musicians that play that??? (haha). Heck man I dont' know but it seems that way these days. But what the heck I loved Satchmo's playing and I can come closer to doing some of his easier tunes, than I'll ever come to playing straight ahead jazz. I make a few bucks, love the music and what the hey.... I'm happy.

Do I ever hire black musicians? Humm??? Only one black around here that I can think of. And he plays some ass kicking clairnet too. But it's not because I'm predjudice. Just that most of the trad jazz players I've met around here are white. But to be honest I never could play good bop no matter how hard I tried, and my sound is closer to Louis than to any cool straight ahead jazz trpt player. I've done a gig with my band at a local Jazz picnic and then can hang out with the other cats (black or white) and we can jam if we want.


So to the Harrisburg jazzers .......... (black or white)......... you guys are cool. Thanks.

Ben Mauger