Tuning Dilema

jakepainter · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 8:55 am Post subject:

I'm trying to help a good freind of mine out and have run out of suggestions.

The problem is that he plays a little out of tune. Its not a technique thing , the problem is that he can't actually hear that he's playing out of tune, so its his ear that needs to be improved.

My tuning is good and i don't really ever remember being taught about tuning, i could always hear if a note is in tune or not, but my freind THINKS he is in tune when he is not. I have got him playing against an electronic tuner to show him when he is playing out, and i have got him to sing intervals at a piano but its not working ???

He's been playing for quite a few years, so he's not new to music, so I'm stumped, If someone can't hear if they are out of tune, how can you teach them that ????

so ANY IDEAS ???

many thanks

Jake Painter

[ This Message was edited by: jakepainter on 2002-05-29 11:56 ]

trumpeterb · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:06 am Post subject:

Can your friend tell when others are playing out of tune...I.E. other live performances or recordings? If so, perhaps record him playing and have him listen to it. The horn will sound much different to him from the other side of the bell.

Andy

tcutrpt · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:19 am Post subject:

If you're talking about in an ensemble setting, I would suggest that you try playing with another ensemble member both in tune and out of tune and ask him to tell the difference. Ask him why he thinks it is in tune or out of tune and make him give a specific reason to keep good guessing out of it. I'm not sure what else to say. I was always taught that hearing something out of tune should make you wince and I do when i hear out of tune playing. There's also that new CD tuning system out that is play along. It's supposed to be really really good. Just my thoughts. Hope it works out!

Matt

jakepainter · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:20 am Post subject:

He can to an extent tell if others are out of tune, if someone is really out then yes he can tell, but if its pretty close then no he can't.

He has actually recorded himself and the same problem occurs, he still can't hear it ??

Its almost like he's micro-tonaly deaf ? is that possible

trickg · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:21 am Post subject:

I have been playing in a rock band now for about six months. A couple of months ago, the trombone player (there are only the two of us in the horn section except for when the band leader isn't playing bass, piano, singing, etc, then he plays tenor sax) got me a tuner with a clip-on pickup through the music store that he works. At first I was a little offended by it because I have always assumend that I have good pitch, which I do, but not quite as good as I thought it was. In any case, I shouldn't have been offended because he uses a tuner that attaches to his bell all of the time.

Since then, I've been working with that tuner quite a bit to learn to play the center of the pitch and the center of the horn and my sense of pitch has improved. Just holding a long tone in tune can be a challenge, especially at the end of a practice.

Just have him work with the tuner and his ear will follow.

_________________
Patrick Gleason

[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2002-05-29 12:22 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:33 am Post subject:

Good suggestions here! One thing I might (ok, will

) add is to find out how he determines if he is in tune. What does he listen for? Is it beats, buzzes, or what? You might want to check out the use of harmonic resonances, or more simply described (in the Chicago Forum, imagine that

) as listening for the buzz. This is what generally makes people "wince", imho. If he was trained to try to hear the pitches with no explanation of what to listen for, or to listen for beats and try to make them go away, using the "buzz" approach might provide a new perspective.

HTH! - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

jakepainter · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 10:35 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the suggestions, one thing i didn't mention is that he actually plays Tenor Sax and not trumpet, but his tuning problem is definately not instrument specific , the same happens when he sings. I'll definately suggest the clip on tuner.
Its so hard trying to describe what makes me wince when its out of tune.

Don, is it possible the chicago ideas can translate onto Tenor Sax ?

many thanks

Jake Painter

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 1:52 pm Post subject:

On 2002-05-29 13:35, jakepainter wrote:

(1) I'll definately suggest the clip on tuner.

Which may not help him tune to another instrument, or a group, or within a chord, unfortunately...

(2) Don, is it possible the chicago ideas can translate onto Tenor Sax ?

I'd imagine so, though as a twigsucker he'll never get the full grace and glory of a brass overtone series, of course...

_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

mumbles · Regular Member Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 87

Not to be a nitpicker...
but the overtone or harmonic series
exists equally within twig-suckers as Don put them...as brass, although used in different ways. Most of you know this anyways, but just as to prevent any indescrepencies (sp?).
And for many reed players, they are essential to tuning and what not.

--C
_________________
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Yamaha 'Bobby Shew' 6310z
Bach 3C
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jakepainter · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 4:13 pm Post subject:

On 2002-05-29 12:19, tcutrpt wrote:
There's also that new CD tuning system out that is play along. It's supposed to be really really good.

---------------------------------

tcutrpt:

Any ideas where there is more info on this ?

Has anyone had experience using it ?

Don: I give my freind almost daily abuse about being a reed sucker

He just won't change to trumpet

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-19 14:27 ]

jakepainter · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 4:38 pm Post subject:

Quad C:

My main worry is that he's been playing since he was a kid (about 11 years) and for the last 2 years has been putting in at least 3 hours a day playing so its not a lack of time at the instrument thats doing it , but i guess what your saying could well be right in that he may be a bit apathetic about the pitch center, he does tend to spend a lot of time practising jazz licks.

I'll certainly suggest your ideas to him.

many thanks

jake

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-19 14:27 ]

Blue Devil · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 8:14 pm Post subject:

Hi Jake,

I don't know if the CD intonation system that was mentioned is called the "TuneUp System", but that is one that I have come across, and was thinking about buying at some point. The website is: http://www.tuneupsystems.com/tuneupwebsite_001.htm

Mike Trzesniak

tcutrpt · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:48 pm Post subject:

Jake, I think Mike gave the link to the tuning system I was talking about. Tune Up sounds like the right name. I haven't used it, just heard others' recommendations. Thanks for helping me out there Mike!

Matt

zachenos · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:15 am Post subject:

Hi,
A couple of things that have helped me have been tuning a guitar/string instrument and singing with the piano and a tuner.
Tuning a string instrument is not exactly an easy thing if you have trouble hearing close pitches, but even when it is only a little off, it is pretty obvious. I had to take a string methods class in college and it helped my ear A LOT.
I also found that sitting down at a piano and plunking a note, then singing it (preferably a note in your voice range) a little sharp and a little flat really opened my hears up to what the "beats" sound like on either end.
Hope this helps,

Zach

wildebrook · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 1:50 pm Post subject:

Your friend sounds out of tune when he plays and also when he sings....I might venture a guess that the reason you know it is him is he stands out volume-wise from his group. This is probably why he is out of tune. He listens to himself and not to the others around him. I'm not sure giving him a tuner would help or hurt! Think I heard a joke once that anybody can play intune by himself, but it takes a real musician to play out of tune together. I find it a frustrating thing about strong players that they often play so loud they are oblivious to the musicians around them, and often this carries over to intunation. Maybe it would help to get across the concept to him of blending with the section, that if he cannot hear his neighbors he is too loud. period. I would bet that if he practices blending, his intunation will also improve. Of course, some folks are so in love with hearing themselves play that this may be a hard habit to break!