How boring

[walter]

I think that it's about time to talk about something that's orchestral, no matter how mundane. Bands aren't orchestras (see my post in the Comments & Suggestions area), and I hope that bands get their own space, comparable to Orchestral, Jazz, Commercial, etc. Each is a legitimate area of trumpet playing.

So my topic is (tah dah!) counting. Any trumpeter who has spent 10 minutes in an orchestra has counted rests for at least 9 minutes. The terrifying part, no matter how easy the passage, is coming in at the right time. It doesn't matter whether you've been counting for 20 minutes and suddenly have to come in on a pianissimo high A, or if you're only counting measures in 5/8, then 2/4, then 6/2, then 4/4 over and over again, then playing a sustained triple forte low G. When the trumpet comes in, the conductor doesn't even consider the fine art of being in the right place at the right time ... and being in tune and sounding musical.

I count by using my thumb on the joints of one hand. Each of the non-thumb fingers has 4 contact points, so I can handle 16 measures before starting over again. Mrs. Thumb is very active, and her 16 daughters enjoy her attention.

In each ensemble that I play in, no matter how long or briefly that I've played with the other players, I make a distinct gesture at each new section (A, B, C or 10, 20, 30). When the meter changes, say from 3/4 to 4/4 and back again, I sometimes make a small conducting movement. This way, I confirm where I am relative to the other players. Of course, when playing a "war-horse" with other players who have also played a piece (e.g. Beethoven's 5th) for the 10,000th time, my concern for synchronization falls to a level slightly lower than catatonia; but therein lies a problem.

Many of us have played pieces often enough that we hardly need the music. I once played the 1st part on Beethoven's 5th during a concert totally without printed music. I was called in about 3 hours before a concert to replace the principal. There was NO printed music on the stand. I am neither proud nor ashamed of how I did that day; but nobody seemed to notice, and the conductor acted as if this was par for the course. I'd played the piece at least 4 times in 2 years before this concert, so I had the part ingrained in me; but it's been at least 3 years since I last played the part, and I don't think that I could repeat my command performance.

We few ... we lucky few (apologies to Henry V) have played particular pieces to the point approaching boredom. Nevertheless, as Woody Allen has said, just showing up is 90% of the job. The adage: "Fake it until you make it" comes to mind.

Any comments?

walter

[trumpetgeek234]

I am not sure about the statement that 90% of the job is just showing up.
Ask Bud Herseth about that ! I bet he has a different opinion on that !

Regarding counting, I do it the same way, but I don't find it to be such a big deal, because most "counting passages" are subdivided into like 30 measures then 20 then 40 and there are mostly cue notes that again help you to locate your counting.

What one should keep in mind is that it looks really dumb if the counting can be seen to the audience. I have seen that once a player was sitting there making body movements with the beats and whispering the counting to himself while counting in a difficult passage. However I find it a good idea to check with your coleagues once in a while when counting.

PB

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2002-10-18 04:44 ]

[PC]

Walter,

At last a fresh thread here to which I can relate! Bless you for that!

I'm afraid my bar counting is more primitive, as I just discreetly unfold my fingers of my right hand. I am thus limited to 5 bars, but the beauty of it is that I never need to fold again my thumb as it is needed for measure 6, 11, 16, ... so that I only really fold/unfold the other 4 fingers (isn't that clever?). When confronted with counts involving more than 30 bars, I use the left hand fingers to count the tens.

Well, actually I'm slightly more sophisticated than that: a lot of western music is built in 8 bar units, so you actually seldom need to be THAT concentrated on how many more bars left. Also, if you are not sight-reading in performance, chances are you can detect cue-bars along the way and pencil mark where the woodwinds, horns or others enter before your entry. In blockbusters, you don't count anyway, since you know the music by heart ad nauseam. I can well relate to your Beethoven 5 experience as I've already done B1-2-7 on auto-pilot, as well as other standards such as Tchaik's violin concerto and the various Beet and Mozart klavierkonsert.

In some overplayed works, I even find myself frowning when the 2nd French horn player strays from the written notes (by the way Walter, were you not referring to the un-edited 2nd trp part in Mozart's Don Giovanni overture in the pedal note thread - the low D written as a in-the-staff C in bass clef?) or the bassoon comes in at the wrong place.

The more difficult bit in counting bars is reconciling the conductor's beat with the music actually played; an extreme illustration of this seeming discord can be seen in the many videos with Karajan conducting, with his typical slow hand waving à la laundry-girl (from the epoch when girls washed laundry in the river or village fountain), utterly uncorrelated with the rhythmical events happening in the orchestra. One of the more mean-oriented of my friends once remarked that an orchestra of the caliber of the CSO could play perfectly without Sir Solti having to stand in front of them, but since he was part of their trademark, they took him along on their trips abroad (it would indeed seem that at one of their concerts in Paris no one was even looking up to see what he was up to).

Anyway, I'm straying off-topic, I guess,
so,
So long for now,
Pierre.

[mafields627]

[trjeam]

[walter]

What an interesting variety of replies!

I'm sure that Herseth busted his butt when he first played for the CSO. He was fresh out of music school, and being able to play the trumpet is not the same as being able to play in an orchestra. Obviously, I mean no disrespect to Herseth, but what students learn about technique probably never covers the nitty-gritty, mundane aspects of playing in an orchestra. Counting and following what's going on during a rehearsal &/or performance can be frightening beyond belief.

Look at the famous passage in Also Sprach Zarathustra, in which the 1st trumpet does the naked octave jump. Herseth makes this sound like playing a simple C scale. Now look at the written part: the pick up notes require listening to what the conductor and orchestra are doing. It's easy in the practice room, but the first time you sit in an orchestra and realize that you're about to play this phrase, the palms start to sweat.

The Borodin 2nd [I think it's the 2nd?] has a movement [the 2nd?] that starts fast and has an awkward rhythmic pattern. Easy? Maybe if everyone in the orchestra is in synch; but if the orchestra is even slightly disoriented, coming in, even on easily playable notes, can either add to the chaos or nail down the orientation of other players. Counting and a precise sense of rhythm can make the difference between a sloppy job and an inspiring performance. Go to a live performance and feel the excitement ... or the catastrophe ... that comes from excellent players either in synch or out of synch.

Have you played the Barber Violin Concerto? Played up to speed [can it be done?] the final section of this piece is a challenge to both your technique and your ability to work together with other musicians.

Orchestras can be made up with people who know how to play their instruments inside-out. That doesn't mean that the ensemble plays well.

Have you ever become disoriented during a performance? I have. Once, when I was playing Bernstein's Candide, I missed an entrance on an important fanfare [when someone is being hanged]. The passage wasn't particularly difficult; but my screw-up helped to turn the scene into total nonsense. I still wince when I think of it. I'm surprised that I was hired back.

I salute anyone who has never botched-up an easy passage. I envy anyone who has absolutely no problems, either because of disorientation or difficult rhythmic patterns, staying focused even when not playing. My hat is off to the flawless player. I've never met you ... but I'm trying to catch up. So watch out!

George- Keep counting. You're in good company.

walter

[Still Trying]

I never used my fingers to keep track of the count. And a lot of my counting seemed to occur subconsciously. I used to get interested in watching and listening to the other musicians when I was counting a long string of rests and consciously lose count of where we were. But every time I came out of my trance my mind would be going, "34-2-3-4-, 35-2-3-4, ...". I'd look over at the principal and mouth "36-2-3-4, 37-2-3-4", and he'd give me a little nod. But he used to do me the same way too. Keeping track of the count was a team effort, albeit it an unobstrusive one. We had an unspoken pact, that we might lose the count, but we were going to lose it together. But I don't remember a time when we ever did.

But knowing how probable it was that we could lose count, we used to make copious notes on our music (in pencil of course) about which instruments came in where in the rest sequences. Accompanying guest soloists used to be the biggist problem. A piano piece might have 200 rest measures broken up into a 62 bar stretch followed by a 48 bar group of rests, etc. So we tried to provide a cue for every division of rest sequences. That way, if we got off in the 62 bar sequence, we could start off correctly when the 48 bar sequence arrived. When you started on the last sequence before your entrance, it was time to really step up the concentration. No mind wondering allowed during that one, if you had to count out loud under your breath until you came in.

I still count unconsciously. I find myself listening to a record or to the radio and all of a sudden I'm aware of going 26-2-3-4, 27-2-3-4, in my mind. Somewhere during the song I'm listening to, I started counting.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?