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Should I consider a new mouthpiece? |
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Total Votes : 19 |
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HF-Castor Regular Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: Large Lips, Small MPC? |
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I was in the practice room today and one of my friends, a fellow trumpet player, came up to me and listened to me while I was doing the arbans scale excercises. He asked me what size mouthpice I was playing on and I told him a Yamaha 11B4. He laughed a bit, and told me that might be why I am not playing to the best of my ability.
I am Black so my lips arent small, he suggested that they might be too big for the piece I was playing on, and that made a little bit of sense to me. Ive never really been able to achieve the level of consistency I wanted on this mouthpiece, not to mention tone quality, could this have something to do with it?
Also, does anybody know what parameter of a mouthpiece I should look for to better fit my lips? What pieced do you recommend? _________________ "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -Mark Twain
Setup
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Silver Bach Stradivarius 37
Vincent Bach 1CW Mouthpiece |
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StradJapan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Fort Lee, NJ USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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This is a great topic. I hope someone can help.
A good friend who is also a great trumpeter looked at my lips and he told me that because I have full lips, a bigger mouthpiece may work better for me. But then I completely lose my range. In general, is this true?
I play on a GR 65.6MS.
Thanks,
Seiji _________________ Peace.
www.RidgewoodBand.org - Treasurer
www.BergenYouthOrchestra.org - Vice President |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1542 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: Large lips |
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Hello all,
Being basically a middle school band director. I try to match natural ability with mouthpiece size when it comes to brass instruments. If that means lip size, then so be it. Since I have seen larger lip kids be more successful on a larger horn, tone quality wise, I would have to say that this same attribute would coincide with different lip size/shaped trumpeters. The adage, "If you don't have tone, you have nothing," comes to mind. I am sure that there are many successful people who play smaller mouthpiece sizes. Bill Chase, who played his piece has always been a wonder to me. Being classically trained and trying to blend in, warrants me to play the largest mp that gives me the best tone and intonation tendency through the range I have to play in. So should players with more tissue play larger mp's...You should evaluate what your performance goal is, and work toward attaining the attributes you need and want. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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TaylorBarnett80 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2004 Posts: 188
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Larger lips do not require a larger diameter mouthpiece. Thinner lips do not require a smaller mouthpiece. The most effective and comfortable, inner rim diameter/shape are determined by a number of factors:
-Lip size AND shape
-Embouchure style (large aperture or small, lots of air or small/focused airstream, lots of lip intrusion or not)
-Style of music/sound desired
Here is a quote by Mark Curry about the topic:
"A mouthpiece, at it's very best, is still a compromise. An ideal mouthpiece should have these qualities:
The rim should be comfortable enough to give reasonable endurance.
Rim diameter, width and contour is a personal issue. There is no set rule that governs this. I've seen physically large players that can play tiny little mouthpieces, and small players who play extremely large mouthpieces equally well. It is also highly dependent on the individual's teeth and jaw formation.
The Total rim (contour, inner diameter, bite and undercut) should give you control over attacks and tone color.
You don't want to limit yourselves on your musicality. The best players have strong low G's as well as a sweet, pretty high G.
FACT: what most players perceive as the rim is actually a combination of the rim, bite, and undercut!
Lip Intrusion: this occurs when the lips actually intrude into the mouthpiece cup. This is somewhat related to the size and thickness of the individual's lips, but not a direct correlation. I stood next to Cat Anderson (the Great High Note player with Duke Ellington's band) and watched him play back in 1975. Even though his lips were large and thick, there was nearly zero intrusion into the cup, which was incredibly shallow. On the other hand, I've seen small-lipped players stuff half their face into a 1C and sound great from low G to high G and above."
The bottom line is that a player has to try different sizes (with a developed embouchure) to find what works. That is why students usually start with something in the "middle of the road". Not too small or too large is the safest way to go.
Taylor |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6133 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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The size of lips has absolutely nothing to do with mouthpiece size. I know plenty of Afro American trumpet players with huge lips that play on pieces as small as a Reeves 42 s. The old tale that a larger piece gives you a larger sound is also baloney. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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AverageJoe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2002 Posts: 4116 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Large Lips, Small MPC? |
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HF-Castor wrote: | I was in the practice room today and one of my friends, a fellow trumpet player, came up to me and listened to me while I was doing the arbans scale excercises. He asked me what size mouthpice I was playing on and I told him a Yamaha 11B4. He laughed a bit, and told me that might be why I am not playing to the best of my ability.
I am Black so my lips arent small, he suggested that they might be too big for the piece I was playing on, and that made a little bit of sense to me. Ive never really been able to achieve the level of consistency I wanted on this mouthpiece, not to mention tone quality, could this have something to do with it?
Also, does anybody know what parameter of a mouthpiece I should look for to better fit my lips? What pieced do you recommend? |
HF --
The bottom line, regardless of where you end up, is that your current mouthpiece is not working for you like it should. Some pertinent info has been provided, but before we get off topic, I'll make a recommendation.
If you have a teacher, then consult with them on trying out some new mouthpieces. If not, then begin searching systematically. The rim of your 11B4 is pretty close to a Bach 7C. The differences are in the rest of the dimensions -- the 11B4 has a slightly tighter throat/backbore, and the cup is a tad bit more shallow. If you are comfortable on the 11B4 rim, then try a Bach 7C -- it might open things up just enough to do the trick.
If that does not do it, then branch out in both directions from there...try some smaller ones and some larger ones and see what you get. Don't try too many in one sitting (maybe four total -- 2 larger and 2 smaller), and don't go radically far away in either direction. Also, take a friend with a critical ear along with you to help with sound differences.
Make sure you are fairly warmed up before you start trying new mpces (don't try out new mouthpieces cold). You will likely get a general idea of the direction you need to go pretty quickly. If you find a great match right away, then go for it. If you aren't quite sure, leave and come back another day, start with the best option from your first visit, and then try 4 more.
Here are some suggestions for you, sorted from smallest to largest (rim size, that is), with your 11B4 placed roughly where it fits by comparison:
Yamaha: 8C4, your 11B4, 11C4, 14B4, 14C4, 15B4, 16C4
Schilke: 8C4, your 11B4, 11, 14B4, 14, 15B4
Bach: 10-1/2C, your 11B4, 7C, 6C, 6, 5C, 3C
This ought to get you started.
Good luck,
Paul Poovey _________________ "Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..." |
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soundbead Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:44 am Post subject: |
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try bigger pieces and decide if they are suitable. If they fit, it will immediately feel very comfortable. However, do not dismiss them if range is lost as it is only normal. After some adaptation, range will quickly come back.
A bigger piece has helped me reduce the number of notes missed by quite a bit since the larger rim has a larger sweet spot for hitting the notes. Consistency and tone improved. Endurance will be compromised but they can be overcome with more embouchure strengthening exercises. I have great success with lip buzzing. In my opinion, it is not too bad a trade off if you are doing legit stuffs. |
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HF-Castor Regular Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, heres the deal. I have this Blessing 3C, Ive had it since high school and I played on it 11th and 12th grade, but I was a completely different player then. I wasnt half as good as I am now. So when I got to college, and someone told me that my 11B4 would help me get higher noted because of the shallower cup, I figured "Great!", being the ignorant player I was back then.
Fast forward to this year. I start having trouble maintaining good tone quality, endurance, and range are shaky at best. So today I try out my 3C again, hoping for some magic, and guess what?
MAGIC!
I had a great sound today, muchcloser to the tone I was used to during the summer, when I was playing better. Also, my endurance today seemed ot be better, and I could tell because we were playing one of the harder song we have in our book. We were playhing it over and over again. Naturally, the less shallow cup effected my range, but not nearly as much as I thought. I was still in good position to play.
I am gonna try the MPC for a few weeks and see where it takes me. Hopefully I will see more improvement as my chops get used to the new MPC. I am considering getting a Vincent Bach 3C, and am wondering if it is of better quality, or if its measurements are different than the Blessing 3C I have. _________________ "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -Mark Twain
Setup
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Silver Bach Stradivarius 37
Vincent Bach 1CW Mouthpiece |
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pfrank Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 3523 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:46 am Post subject: |
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This is a common experience you've had--moreso than just the usual mp "honeymoon" as you've advanced since using the 3C last time. But the "honeymoon" occures with Many mp changes, you're using fresh tissue (as it were), it's what happens after a few weeks and you've adapted to a new mp that counts (unless you switch constantly and always stay in a honeymoon period...but that's only a theory I've amused myself with...)
Now, you've moved 2 sizes bigger in Yamaha measurement terms. I went from, like, a 17C4 equilivant (was a Stomvi 1 1/2C) to a 13C4 or 13B4 in Yamaha rims in two jumps, couldn't negotiate a huge change...the Yamaha 11 was too small, never could make it feel comfortable or controlable, but at the 13B I had enough room to make a nice tone, AND small enough to center on and help the high range and brightness when needed. A Schilke 11 or 12B are both a bit bigger than your Y11B...a Schilke 11B would be a special order, it's not a stock size, durn it (Yamaha runs about a size bigger than Schilke with the same numbering system) So I say go one size bigger at a time.
But go buy a bloody Bach 3C if that's what you want to do. Many use it. I suppose it depends on the kind of music and sound you need to make. You'll always learn something. At least Yamaha and Bach are still a good value, still reasonable. |
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old geezer Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 324 Location: Indianapolis
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I am a firm believer that the size of lips does not have a bearing on the mouthpiece, I used to. I sat in a dance band about 20 yr. ago and there was this little old black dude from New Orleans who sat in the solo chair that night. He had extremely full lips and there were just full of scar tissue from playing so many years. He would take the solos and had a beautiful tone and after the job I looked at his mouthpice and it looked like an old mouthpiece that someone took to a belt sander - it had almost no cup at all, just a dimple. I have fleshy lips and play on a Reeves 42M. Have fun on your quest for the perfect mouthpiece. old geezer Dave _________________ L.A. Benge 2ML 16389
L.A. Benge 2MLP 11745
K. Allman 1414
Yamaha Mike Vax 450573
Yamaha 231 Flugel 15383
Olds Amb. Cornet 50734 |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I would not be in favor of taking advice from another student - it does, in fact, sound like a student - who is handing out advice. What are this person's qualifications to be giving advice? As you can see, there is not going to be total agreement on this forum as to the answer to your question. So, that makes it depend on you and what your needs might be. Another student is not in any position to know. You need to experiement, preferably with someone who has the experience to help you, and see what mouthpiece is best - whether a larger cup helps your playing.
Unless you are dealing with a well qualified trumpet teacher or professional player, I would ignore other students and seek your advice from someone who is better qualified to give it. |
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HF-Castor Regular Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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At this point, I think its safe to say that my friend, a student yes, was correct because after two days of playing on my 3C I am finding it to be the better piece for me. And as far as trying other pieces, why not try the ones I have first. I have in my collection:
-Yamaha 11B4, 13B4, Schilke 13a4a, Blessing 3C, Generic 7C.
Obviously the Schilke is out of the question, I never really like the cup size or the rim before. The 7C might be okay, but the 3C, which I am using now is actually performing quite well, so I will stick with it for a trial period of time, and see what happens. I definately will try other pieces if I feel the 3C is not getting me where I think I need to be after a certain amount of time.
I think I was a little excited yesterday when I made my last post, and the excitement of finding something that work better than my 11B4 has now subsided and is allowing me to act more rationally. So I will try the 3C.
I appreciate all the advice, and everyone's opinion. If anyone has any other comments and suggestions please post them.
Thanks _________________ "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -Mark Twain
Setup
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Silver Bach Stradivarius 37
Vincent Bach 1CW Mouthpiece |
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wvtrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Stick with the 3C, maybe try to pick up a Bach 3C in place of the Blessing. This may only make a marginal difference but to me its worth it!!!! Also, always consult your private teacher for his/her opinion. They should know your playing better than anyone and help you to make the right choice. Keep playin' my friend, that is what it's all about. WVtrumpet _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet. |
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pfrank Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 3523 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
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old geezer wrote: | ...little old black dude from New Orleans... |
Unfair comparison! Little old black dudes from New Orleans are likely to accomplish anything. They didn't know they can't. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:48 am Post subject: |
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If you feel more comfortable on the Blessing 3C, you should definitely try some quality pieces in that size range - Schilke 14 & 12B4, Warburton 4(M,C), of course Bach 3C and check out the 6BM, Stork Vacciano 5C, and other quality brands in the .660 - .670 range. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Chaser Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 441
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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My personal thoughts (after playing for years on smaller rims and now on larger) is that you can't go by some formula of lip size. The embouchure (closed or open) will be a far bigger determining factor.
The easiest way I have found to test a mouthpiece is:
Play on it for a couple of weeks to at least familiarize yourself with it. When it starts feeling comfortable, play something challenging dynamically and in regards to range (basically play something high and loud whatever that level may be in you scope of abilities) and note what your chops want to do naturally. If they try and pull out of the piece or your have an urge to "smile" or pull the corners back, then the piece is too small for your set-up chops and lips wise. With a rim that is close to the right size (or even a hair big) you should have the urge to get more chop in the piece, or feel everything pulling towards the mouthpiece, or simply just feel stong and focused chop wise.
I can't say this will work for everyone, but it it the acid test for me to see if a rim is too small. My thoughts are that if a rim is truly too small, you will instictively thin your lips out to get some vibrational room which lead to not building embouchure strength, encourages the use of pressure, and causes a downward spiral (as you don't get stronger, beat your chops up with pressure, now feel weaker, add more pressure, rinse, lather, and repeat until you struggle to hit a high C.) |
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big_trumpet09 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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try a B&S 1 1/2C it's a bach 3c copy except the rim is much more comfortable (and in my opinion) it gives a better response and better tone _________________ Yamaha 2335
Bach TR300
Nickel Mendeelev
Gerhard Baier Heavyweight
mpcs: Benge 3, benge 5B, B&S 1 1/2C, Bach 3C, bach 5C, Bach 7C |
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old geezer Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 324 Location: Indianapolis
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Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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pfrank - exactly right. he played on something that worked for him - - if he had listened to all of the advice on this sight he probably would have got frustrated and put up the horn. he asked me [ of all people] to play lead and said if his Dr. found out he was playing again he would have a fit. the guy had heart problems and emphysema and was told never to play again because it could kill him.---- man could that old dude play. old geezer Dave _________________ L.A. Benge 2ML 16389
L.A. Benge 2MLP 11745
K. Allman 1414
Yamaha Mike Vax 450573
Yamaha 231 Flugel 15383
Olds Amb. Cornet 50734 |
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JamesL Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 134 Location: Eastern North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Chaser that is one of the better mouthpiece test ideas!
I just tried it and on my smaller pieces like a Schilke 10a4a, Bach 10 1/2, 7C and my lips want to thin out semi-smile, but on my Curry 1 1/4c my lips want to bunch and go furhter into the mouthpiece, the crappy Bach 3C is like in between. _________________ 58 Olds Ambassador Trumpet
70 Bach Strad 37 trumpet
60 Martin Committee trumpet
Couesnon Flugelhorn
Selmer MK 6 tenor
Conn 6M Alto
"i am tired of everything except the music" Dexter Gordon |
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Nick_08 Regular Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 97 Location: Martinsville, VA
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Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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wvtrumpet wrote: | Stick with the 3C, maybe try to pick up a Bach 3C in place of the Blessing. This may only make a marginal difference but to me its worth it!!!! |
I completely disagree. There is no difference in quality of sound between a Bach and Blessing. I use both, and personally, I'm more comfortable with my Blessing 3C. HF, you may be the same way. _________________ Magna Vista Warrior Band
'05-'06 Trumpet Soloist
Disney Magic Music Days Performers-"Selected to Celebrate America's Musical Heritage" |
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