Beginners first change

[Andymasch]

Hello to you guys, i'm a very beginning person in trumpet (6 weeks) and yesterday after practise with my teacher i had my first time in brassband and it was great.
But i have one question:
I learn the notes different to all Trumpetbook i have seen: I learn Bb=blanc, c=13, d=12 and so on.
In all the books they have: c=blanc, d=13,e=12
Can anybody tell me what to think about that?

[ This Message was edited by: Andymasch on 2002-12-28 13:13 ]

[trumpetgeek234]

looks like you are learning to play music written in C

[_Don Herman]

Sounds (reads?) to me like you learned the notes from piano or other instrument, figuring out the right fingerings for yourself. A typical trumpet is a Bb instrument; that is, the fundamental harmonic series (pitch of notes when no valves are depressed -- "open") starts on concert (piano pitch) Bb, not C. Another way to think about it is that, if you play a C on the piano, you'll have to play one whole step higher -- a D, fingered 13 -- on your trumpet to match pitch. So, you taught yourself the fingerings for concert or "piano" pitches, while your trumpet books use notes a whole step lower -- when you play a C in your book, open (no valves pressed down), you sound a (concert) Bb pitch.

For example:

Trumpet C = open = concert Bb
trumpet D = 13 = concert C
trumpet G = open = concert F
trumpet Bb = 1 = concert Ab

and so forth...

This may be hard to understand at first (judging by my lack of skill at tranposing, y'all could strike the "at first" ) but hopefully upon reading through it and thinking about what you've learned it'll make some sort of sense. - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Andymasch]

I understand what you said don, in our (Church)-Brassband we play the notes
exactly the way the stand there Bb=open c=13.. with the Bb-trumpet and in
all book they play it transposed, but what is the correct way to do it?
My teachers in the brassband can't tell.

[_Don Herman]

Congratulations! You've already learned C transposition, a very good skill to have. To answer your question, fingerings are generally associated with the horn. So, if you have a Bb horn in your hand, the "correct" pitch and fingering is C = open, which sounds a concert Bb tone. So, your trumpet method books and such will assume C is open, D is 13, etc. To play from your church hymnal, you'll have to transpose into concert C by playing evrything up a whole step, or (in your case) using the fingerings for the next higher pitch (C = 13, which is concert C on a Bb horn, and the note "D" in your trumpet books).

This all sounds (looks?) more confusing than it really is, and it sounds like you've already pretty much figured (fingered?) it out. If you get trumpet music, that is music for a Bb trumpet, then you'll have to play using "trumpet" fingerings/pitches (a whole step lower, where C = open sounds a concert Bb pitch).

For what it's worth, if you play C = open on a piccolo trumpet in A you'll be sounding a concert A pitch, even though the music says "A" and you press 12 to play the note. This is what I mean when I say the fingering goes with the horn -- an open C on the horn sounds it's concert pitch, so horns in Bb, C, A, D, G, etc. all sound different notes when you play a C (open) on them. Does this help? I can't seem to find a good way to explain with using way too many words...

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[olivermasch]

Greetings to all,

especially to you andy! I am Andymasch's younger brother -we began together playing trompet- and we play together in a brass band. I used to play the piano and guitar for many years so notation, harmony and transpostion are no foreign subjects to me. But why should I play my trompet transposed? In Military- and Church-Brass-Bands the songs are played exactly after the notation and without transposition. One day Andy and I found the notes for our german national anthem in Es-Dur! We played the notes together with a CD-Music Brass Band and it really was in Es-Dur! The US national anthem is also in Es-Dur, right? Don, would you right down the notes for your anthem in F-Dur?

Best regards, Olli

[_Don Herman]

Hi Olli,

I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't know what "Es-Dur" means, but if you're asking if I would write out a transposition, the answer is "yes" -- if I have to do that to play the piece well! My teacher has often said that, while I'm learning transposition, it's no sin to write it out if I need it in a performance. The audience doesn't care what's on the page, just what comes out the bell. Of course, I rarely have time to sit down and write it all out. Normally, I use my C trumpet or just read the line up a whole step on my Bb. As for our national anthem, I've played it in several keys over the years, so I can't say which is "correct" (but I'll bet there's a web site that has the "official" key). If I'm handed a Bb part, I'll read it straight with my Bb; if it's a C or piano part, I'll transpose up a whole step or use my C trumpet.

If you're questioning why we learn the fingerings in "horn" pitch instead of "concert" pitch, you'll have to see if somebody else can step in and explain that. I can say that trumpets were made in different keys 'way back when, so if you saw a part for "trumpet in F" you simply picked up your F trumpet. Nowadays, I'd pick up my C trumpet and transpose on the fly. After some practicing, in my case, however! FWIW, I think the idea is that a scale is played the same on all horns, and the pitch varies. If I understand you, you're asking why didn't we make the scale (fingering) different and lock down the pitches instead. In my case, my little pea brain isn't big enough to handle different fingerings for all my horn keys (A, Bb, C, and G in my case -- still want a D/Eb, but...). So, I just learned the scales, and know that if the parts in E and I'm on my C I need to adjust a third. Up to you how the mental aspects work out! Ultimately only the sound matters. Which, of course, means you'd better be in the right key, no matter how you figure that out.

Finally, I learned trumpet in grade school, using materials targeting Bb trumpets/cornets, and they used "horn" pitch fingerings (e.g., concert C in the book was written as a D, fingered 13). If I wanted to be able to talk trumpet with my peers, and read music written for trumpet, I had to learn those fingerings. So I did! Not saying you have to... But, if you get "normal" trumpet music, method books, or what have you, that is already transposed a whole step up (and with two added sharps) for Bb horns, then obviously you'll have to use the "other" fingerings to make it sound right.

Hope this helps - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[PC]

Don,

Es-dur means Eb Major (Fiss moll would be F# minor, I venture!). As I see it, Andy plays like a trombone player does (on the valve bone or bass trumpet, or on the slide bone where "open" corresponds to 1st position, 13 - to 6th, etc.): he has essentially a Bb instrument but couldn't care less and thinks concert pitches. This is fine if you only have one instrument, but as Don says, you'll have to learn a lot of fingerings if you acquire C, D, Eb, piccolo in A etc. trumpets. The accepted convention is to be able to transpose to any pitch as required by the trumpet you hold, such that the fingering is always the same on any trumpet, meaning C - open, low D - 13 etc. Actually this is not so trivial, especially if you have a relatively good ear where you will tend to always hear a C where concert C lies in absolute frequency, making it difficult to finger C and sound Eb, for example. I sometimes think "in Bb" while playing my C trumpet, in effect using a different fingering to satisfy the note names that my ear wants to hear. This works OK for easy literature but if you play a concerto, you do not want to rely on this method.

To sum up, I learned the traditional way on a Bb instrument, developing a "Bb ear", which means that when I try to play a melody on piano, I hit the C key thinking D, etc. So I will hear the German anthem in F when it is played in "Es-dur". But I will play it in F only on my (rotary!) Bb. I'll play it in Eb on my C trumpet (using different fingerings, obviously) and in F# on my A picc with still different fingerings. It is probably easier to learn to transpose well rather than learning all those different fingerings and thinking Eb all the time.

HTH,
Pierre

[Andymasch]

Hi pierre,

It's nice to have you in our discusion, doses it mean, that it is possible for
someone to learn the fingering that I learn right know (Bb=open C=13..)
I need that for my churchband because we have all the same notation
even the churchorgan and than to learn the classic trumpet fingering
to be able to play concert trumpetparts written for Bb-trumpet?
Perhaps I could also use my fingering and a C-trumpet to play a
concert Bb-trumpet part?

best regards Andy

[ This Message was edited by: Andymasch on 2003-01-02 09:41 ]

[_Don Herman]

Thanks for the info, and for helping me out here, Pierre! I was hoping somebody with more expertise would step in and bail me out.

Andy, if I follow you, you'd be going the wrong way using your C trumpet and "Bb" fingerings for Bb music. If the (Bb) music has a written C for a Bb trumpet and you play the C open with a Bb trumpet, you'll be sounding a concert Bb, as desired. If you play the note with a C trumpet, also using open fingering, you'll be sounding a concert C, a whole step higher. If you finger 13 on your C trumpet to play the written C you'll be playing a concert D, two whole steps above the desired concert Bb if the music is written for Bb trumpet. Or, since the C trumpet is pitched a step higher than the Bb trumpet, when reading Bb music you must finger (and play) a step down. A written C in Bb music is played using a C trumpet with valve 1 depressed (to sound a concert Bb). A D written in Bb music (and played 13 on a Bb horn) is a concert C, and is played open (no valves down) on a C trumpet. Does this make sense?

This gets confusing, but maybe by thinking of the intervals you can work it out. Since a Bb horn is pitched a whole step lower, you must play everything a step up if you're reading concert pitched (or C trumpet) music. If you're reading from your (concert pitch) hymnal, and have a C trumpet, you'll just play it as written, with a C played open and a D played 13, etc.

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Andymasch]

Hi Don,

nice to "here" you again.
I think you are wrong. I said:
If I use a C-trumpet with my fingering, I can play parts written in Bb.
Because I play Bb=open on Bb trumpet is C on C-trumpet and
C=13 on Bb trumpet is D on C-trumpet, is that the way it is?

By the way, today we had the same discusion on our Churchbrassband.
We god a new member an he learned the traditional fingering and
had no change to play with us. And our Bandleader told us, the about
100 years ago a german pastor did change the fingering for Churchbands,
because it is easy for us to play untransposed and the trumpetplayers
could no run awaiy from churchbands to normal band because they can't play
real trumpet parts. I Think thats the most important point.

But for me, I will learn the fingerring for churchbrass, try to get good chops
and than I will try to learn the other fingering for myself or with a book.

best regards to Don, Pierre, Olli

Andy

[_Don Herman]

On 2003-01-02 15:30, Andymasch wrote in part:
I think you are wrong. I said:
If I use a C-trumpet with my fingering, I can play parts written in Bb.
Because I play Bb=open on Bb trumpet is C on C-trumpet and
C=13 on Bb trumpet is D on C-trumpet, is that the way it is?
---
Not sure I got it, so I'm probably confused. I'll try a few examples to see if it helps one of us out...

A written Bb played open on a Bb trumpet ( a C to we Bb types) sounds a concert Bb, which is played with valve 1 on a C trumpet. A C=13 played on a Bb trumpet (a D to we Bb types) sounds a concert C, which is played open on a C trumpet. The same fingerings will not give the same pitch, as the horns are in different keys.

However, if you play Bb=open on your Bb horn when reading music written for C trumpet (or, piano or concert pitch), you will be playing a concert Bb just as you wanted. This is what I understood you to be doing; you've learned "concert pitch" fingerings on your Bb horn.

If you use a C trumpet, and see a written Bb, if you play it open you'll be playing concert C. If the music was written for a C trumpet, you'll be two steps too high; if it was written for Bb trumpet, four steps high.

To play music written for Bb trumpet using a C trumpet, you'll have to transpose down a whole step, so a written C for a Bb trumpet would be played 1 (Bb) on a C trumpet. A Bb note in music written for trumpet in Bb would be played 23 when using a C trumpet.

Is that what you said? I think I'm losing it here... - Don

p.s. What your leader said makes some sense... By learning it your way, tranposing is avoided, and you would have to relearn the fingerings to sit in a "normal" brass band. This way, you can play straight out of the hymnal (or piano/organ church music) or play C parts written out for you without transposing. But, you'd have to relearn the fingerings if you go sit in a band and they put Bb trumpet music in front of you! Kind of devious for church folk...
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2003-01-03 00:09 ]

[PC]

Hello Andy, Don,

From many years of horsing around in symphony orchestras with Bb and C trumpets, I can tell that Don's transposition rules are correct (I have both had to play music written for Bb trp. on my C trp. and vise versa). My take on it, Andy: you will be better off learning early on how to transpose up a tone than trying to learn a fingering system that nobody else uses, for no other reason than historical tradition. You will have many more conflicting situations playing with "wrong fingerings" in virtually every ensemble playing than if you take the trouble to learn dealing with concert C music by taking it up 2 half-steps.

If it helps, I would take the trouble to rewrite the music up a step at first, until you get proficient at sight reading while transposing (perhaps you can use computer software to automatically transpose). Unfortunately, our instrument adopted this business of transposing instead of using concert pitch as it is with low brasses, certainly because of the abundance of trumpets in different pitch. The only consolation we have is that trombones must learn tenor and alto clef, french horns have to deal with 2 fingering systems (F & Bb sides of the instrument, unless you play in the Wiener Philharmoniker and must only use low F horn!), and tubists have to learn to wiggle up to 6 valves and use Bb, C and Eb instruments!

In short, and I think Don will agree here, it would be a mistake to learn a fingering system at odds with all the other trumpeters as it would force you to learn to transpose differently than all your colleagues (feasible but better avoided) were you to start playing in other orchestras.

Welcome to the head-banging world of transposers, I had a particularly nasty season this fall in my orchestra, where we had music for E trumpet with lots of accidentals sprinkled all over the place, not very friendly for a Bb trumpet (I thank my American instructor who insisted on my learning all possible transpositions early on, using the Concone etudes, for a starter and graduating to the Bach 2 part Inventions duet book arranged by <I forgot the name, I think an American guy>, where the transposition changes every few bars and is different for the 2 trumpets)!

Sincerely,
Pierre

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2003-01-03 01:49 ]