Bottom lip

DSR · Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:08 am Post subject:

My father told me on the phone the other night that Reinhardt used to say: "The less red of the bottom lip I see the better." (For the middle/upper register obviously)

I definately need to work on this. The range of motion of my lower lip is extremely limited. I noticed on that slurring movie clip that Wilk made that the red of the bottom lip was entirely rolled in on the upper tones.

I've noticed this on a lot of developed trumpet players. You can't see any red of the bottom, except on the lower notes. Of course there must be exeptions. ie: people with really big lips

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

MF fan,

I just finished answering your question about buzzing, but I'm always glad to help if I can.

First off lip compression is created by "pinching" the lips, as far as I know that is the only way to make lip compression. This is what Doc called "The foundation of your embochure."

Second of all, you did the nasty on this forum by saying you practice pedal tones. We have no "trumpet police" here, but anyone who's been hanging out here for anytime at all knows how Doc felt about pedal tones. I know I put several posts on here about that and may I suggest you read them.

Why not try laying off the pedal tones for a month and see how you feel?
I'll be honest with you it's not that we wouldn't all like to help you but as long as you are a "pedal tone guy" maybe you should check out the Claude Gordon forum. Reinhardt and pedal tones are like oil and water.

Here's wishing you "good chops". Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-07 21:09 ]

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Good for you Dave,

Welcome to the " ex- pedal tone club" of which I used to be a member some twenty three years ago. I think you will notice great improvements in your playing, especially your tonguing.

Best of luck, Chris.

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Pedal tones are not always necessary by any means. - well done!

Roddy o-iii<O
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PC · Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:36 am Post subject:

Chris,

could you elaborate on the reasons Doc was against pedals? Being as meticulous as he was, he surely had some good explanations: You mentioned impaired tonguing, why is that?

Obviously, there are some fine high-note players who never heard of pedals and there are those who swear by them. I am actually quite indifferent to them; I've used them more for the fun of experimenting than anything else, so I couldn't say why they help/hinder my playing.

Cheers,
Pierre.

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Pierre,

Look for my post on this forum under "Doc Reinhardt's thought's on pedal tones" I think it explains his feeling pretty well.

Chris

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:57 pm Post subject:

ANNOUNCEMENT!!!

As promised, I removed the contents of a couple posts advocating that which is not Reinhardt-style instruction.

On the Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt forum, we are not here to promote, advertise, and/or instruct other teacher's methods.

You may call this a denial of freedom of speech. I disagree . . . there are a dozen other places that would welcome your non-Reinhardt views right here on the Trumpet Herald Forum, and you're completely free to post whatever you want in those other forums.

bulos · Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:36 pm Post subject:

[quote]

The stuff about the pedal tones and rolling of bottom lip will be deleted in their entirety by me within 24 hours.

It seemed to me like this fellow may have been overdoing the rolling in.
pp 152 of The encylopedia:

26. what is a lip roll?

the term lip roll generally refers to the membrane of the lower lip rolling slightly over (not curled against) the lower teeth. In certain physical types this reference is also made in regards to the upper lip.

27. What is meant by a lip curl?

The term lip curl generally refers to the curling of the lip membrane against (not over) the teeth.

28. What is the principal duty of the lower jaw while playing?

The principal duty of the lower jaw while playing is to provide an adequate playing base or foundation so that both the inner and outer embouchures may function as one synchronized unit,regardless of the players type classification. The playing base must be held intact while the jaw is protruded and receeded (according to the register being played), regardless of any jaw malocclusion that may exist in the players jaw formation. The expression "stay with the jaw" is quite common in the teaching of the Pivot System.

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[ This Message was edited by: BeboppinFool on 2002-10-12 19:46 ]

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Rich,

Thanks for keeping this forum 100% Reinhardt.

Chris.

"The less lower lip I see, the better I like it."
Dr.Donald S. Reinhardt (1908-1989)

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2002 11:22 am Post subject:

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Bravo Rich,

You are right on the money. The last thing we need here are Rienhardt novices preaching pedal tones or anything else for that matter. As far as I know Paul has never studied with Doc in person. I believe that I was the one who introduced him to Doc's material. I gave him one Orientation type lesson, along with the " Ten Test Drills". After that we spent many hours talking on the phone about Doc's teaching's. Paul seemed to be sincere in his efforts to grasp the Pivot System's teachings and theories at least during the time I was helping him, but what I showed him was only about 20% of what he would have gotten had he continued his Pivot System studies. The Pivot System is a life long endevor, it requires total and complete dedication to master it. You have to follow Doc's teaching's to the letter, and if you don't, well as Doc used to say; " You're robbing Peter to pay Paul, and getting no where fast."

The only reason that I'm on this forum is because I feel that I owe it to Doc's memory. As I've said before he did everything for me chop wise and then some. It's very important to me to see that Doc's idea's are portrayed accurately, the way he would have presented them had he been here on this forum himself.

I don't want people to feel excluded here, or feel that they can't voice an opinion, but this is the REINHARDT FORUM and if you've been keeping up with whats been going on here you should KNOW HOW WE FEEL ABOUT PEDAL TONES!!! I'm going to quote Doc here, this is from his Orientation and Analysis papers that he gave everybody on their first lesson ( And yes I do believe I gave a copy of this to Paul when I gave him an Orientation.) here goes: "While you are under my tutalage, POSITIVELY DO NOT PRACTICE "TRUMPET PEDAL TONES" AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER. Trumpet pedal tones are in direct conflict with the instuction presented in my PIVOT SYSTEM." Dr. Donald S Reinhardt (1908-1989)

I think Doc makes feeling about pedal tones PERFECTLY CLEAR

Chris LaBarbera
Reinhardt student 1979-85

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-12 16:37 ]

bulos · Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:59 pm Post subject:

Paul, I get the distinct feeling that you never actually studied with Doc Reinhardt in the flesh. How can you presume to know anything about his "lack of dogma and his open mindedness," man?

That's right Rich I never did, and Rich I presumed nothing. What I meant by "lack of dogma and his open mindedness," was that many teachers will telll students "you have to play 1/3 2/3 , you have to play with the horn parallel to the floor, you have to do this and you have to do that" ........... I'm sure you can see that there is a difference between that kind of thing and a teacher that wants you to stay the course?

Don't come in here preaching pedal tones and then complain that one of Reinhardt's prescriptions for a certain problem doesn't work. That's possibly the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

Hey Rich I was preaching nothing I merely said that perhaps this guy (MF FAN) found some success with pedals nor do I remember ever saying something that Reinhardt prescribed didn't work that my friend is totally untrue.

Tass · Regular Member Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

hi im 14 and i play the trumpet. whats pedal tones? it seems like u guys dont like it much. just wanna know if i should too

umm im new to the forums here. and to trumpet instructers and people who played it.. can someone tell me who Doc Reinhardt is, and what he did, im just instrested in finding out

[ This Message was edited by: Tass on 2003-01-09 21:30 ]

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:51 am Post subject:

DSR · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:00 pm Post subject:

Tass...pedals tones are notes below a low F sharp on trumpet. (F sharp below the staff)

-Brendan