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julia · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:07 pm Post subject:

hey, thanks alot!...very helpful

CRJAZZMAN · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:33 am Post subject:

Pedal Tones get their name from the lowest notes on the organ which are played on the foot pedals.

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trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:45 am Post subject:

I find this way of LEARNING very strange!

You play pedal tones at the low end of your range and expect through some sort of mirracle that your body will apply this to the other end, the high range! How should this happen?
After you practiced pedal tones, why should your body change anything in your high range when playing it?
I would assume that there must be some sort of exercise, that helps you apply pedals to upper register playing! Is there such a thing?

I think I can't understand this, because the method that I come from is not such a "luck" game. For all exercises that I do, I know precisely what they do to my playing and what I need to do in order for them to work. I think for many methods this isn't necessarily true!

PB

Annie · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 7:27 pm Post subject:

MF Fan · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:40 am Post subject:

Quote:
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You play pedal tones at the low end of your range and expect through some sort of mirracle that your body will apply this to the other end, the high range! How should this happen?
After you practiced pedal tones, why should your body change anything in your high range when playing it?
I would assume that there must be some sort of exercise, that helps you apply pedals to upper register playing! Is there such a thing?
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I agree, no miracles, which was my point. The embouchure/tongue/air set-up you need to play pedals correctly is the same one to be used in the upper register, IMO. Therefore, pedals teach you the set-up with out the stress of having to learn it exclusively in the upper register.

Why do football players run through a line of car tires, or push a blocking sled. Do the expect a miracle to happen? No, they're learning the mechanics that can be applied on the field.

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:49 am Post subject:

If the air/embouchure/tongue set-up, which is to be unique for every single note played is the same in pedal tones as well as in high notes, then it would be something like this:

Well I am going to try to hit a high C, a pedal tone might come out instead by accident!

I don't think so!

There must be something to that pedal notes do, for example help to achieve a relaxed embouchure, but how are you going to tell your body to use this same embouchure in upper range? You can't just say, well I am going to use this embouchure from now on, every time i play high. This won't work, because that's just not how the body works. Your body will always remember how to play a high note, which will be just as you did before starting pedal tones! Why would your body change anything in your high register after playing low? I still don't get it, because there is nothing that tells the body to play high notes that way! Playing happens subconscious, that's why in my opinion pedals tones can't work long term.

Sure there are those that say, after playing pedals everything seems easier, but how about the gig! Are you gonna play pedals on stage just before your solo???

PB

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:24 pm Post subject:

PB,

Your questions are reasonable.

I can only respond regarding my own specific approach to pedals, which means playing them with a specific sound and lip position. This approach brings about greater lip strength with a more focused setting (in some ways similar, but as you said, not EXACTLY the same as the upper register setting). It also activates a greater "rolled out" lip range of motion, which in combination with corresponding roll in exercises, brings about a more fully realized (and complex) range of motion "package." This is necessary because most player's lips don't move enough, locked into an inefficient setting, sometimes for an entire career.

So, I view the ideal embouchure as a dynamic balance between rolled out and rolled in lip position, which can be discovered by increasing the lip range of motion through specific exercises, awakening them back to their full potential. This process eventually becomes part of unconscious coordination.

Some players need this rolled out component in their embouchure more than others, but everyone benefits to a degree.

You said:

"Sure there are those that say, after playing pedals everything seems easier, but how about the gig! Are you gonna play pedals on stage just before your solo???"

No, not any more than a football player sits in a jacuzzi or lifts weights between plays on the field.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:03 pm Post subject:

There must be something to that pedal notes do, for example help to achieve a relaxed embouchure, but how are you going to tell your body to use this same embouchure in upper range?

Now you are asking the right question.

Pedals teach the lips how to play without mpc pressure. So, after doing a pedal exercise it is crucial to play something immediately in the normal full range of the instrument. The theory is that some of that exposure to pressureless playing that your lips have experienced in the pedal register will translate to the middle and upper register. You, sort of, try to trick your lips into playing without pressure. Then the theory is that over time, six months, 1 year, 2 years, etc., your embouchure will learn to play without pressure. That is when things start to become fun. When sound production becomes consistent and fairly easy. At this point many players find that it isn't necessary to practice pedals any longer.

Practicing out of range or off horn exercises always require immediate on horn playing, in order that the off horn or out-of-range exercise can have meaning for normal sound production. So in answer to the question, "how are you going to tell your body to use this same embouchure in upper range?" This is how you tell your body how to use this training technique.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-01-12 18:05 ]

MF Fan · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject:

Quota:

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Well I am going to try to hit a high C, a pedal tone might come out instead by accident!
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The things that are similar between the pedal and high-note set-up FOR ME are a forward, puckered embouchure, relaxed upper body, tongue arch, and lots of air. The variables that vary dramatically between pedals and the upper register that prevent random notes between pedals and high notes are: Lip compression and air velocity. My embouchure compression and air column velocity increase exponentially as I ascend. Again, an individual's perception of what they're doing to acheive the results they experience is a, well, individual experience! For me, and many others, pedal tones are a model that conditions the embouchure to execute many of the mechanics necessary for the upper register. I think this generally works best for down stream players that play with at least a 1/2-1/2, or 2/3 -1/3 mouthpiece placement(top/bottom). Upstream players that play with very little upper lip in the mouthpiece apparantly derive less benefit. Again, it works for me.

drunkiq · Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject:

here is the deal: (a very opinioned one I might add)

1. when you play low your corners will be tight (to stop the air from leaking) and middle of the lips will be loose -this is just like when some of you play upstaris...

that is why this method does nto work for everyone - for instance, those that roll in the lip when playing high will not really benifit from this because the setting will not match and I belive that make pedal tones usless for that person. but for others this may work, but it definetly never hurts to try it and see if it works out for you, you will never know untill you try.

2. in order to play low, more air support is needed to have a good tone and the throat needs to be relaxed - you can't pince the throat and play a pedal tone (at least I can't) - hmm.. that is that same as playing upstairs too right?

so there are my thoughts on the subject I hope it makes sense, if not then maybe you can convicne me otherwise...

all the best,

Marc

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

You know what I think is good is to do some roll-in excercises and the 20-minute G excercise (usually don't do 20 minutes but maybe 10 that's plenty)...By the time I'm done with this, my range is working really well, but then I tend to blow through the low notes, so I do some pedal tones and even it out, maybe some roll-out excercises, etc. That really gets good tone in both registers for me usually. When I practice pedal tones for a long time it becomes hard to play above a High C or D usually although that's not always the case. On one occasion I practiced pedal tones and my mouth started to feel really comfortable and relaxed and my tone and range were good. I don't know why it works and doesn't work sometimes. But I do think when your chops are truly moving, it takes a lot of low note playing before your range decreases at all...And that's a good thing.