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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: Benge 7 Trumpet |
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Does anyone any information on the Benge model 7 Trumpet by UMI? _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists. |
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Tristan the man 2000 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 1283 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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If it's from UMI, it's probably not that great. _________________ Kickin' brass and takin' names. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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It was a .470 bore, and I think had a very large bell, but I couldn't tell you if the bell was the same or different than any other model. I believe Stan Mark played one for a while.
There may have been a few made in Los Angeles, again, I couldn't speak to that.
I don't agree with Tristan's assertion that all UMI horns are bad. I played a 3X made late in the LA era that was excellent. |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would disagree. UMI still made fine Benges in California in the early 80s. Keep in mind that UMI was the corporate parent in Elkhart but Benge design and production was run by King Musical Instruments in Eastlake, Ohio. King owned Benge many years before UMI was created.
The 7X (huge .470 bore) was played by Stan Mark (with MF band at the time) and other lead players. This model was created for real powerhouse players and every trumpeter I knew that bought the new 7X when it came out was a monster player. If the early 80s UMI 7X "wasn't very good" these guys would have never purchased them.
This trumpet cannot be compared to the 3x of recent years. The 7X was strictly for top pros. If you can handle one, go for it! _________________ C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C (Jens Lindemann is right)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 983
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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plankowner110 wrote: | I would disagree. UMI still made fine Benges in California in the early 80s. Keep in mind that UMI was the corporate parent in Elkhart but Benge design and production was run by King Musical Instruments in Eastlake, Ohio. King owned Benge many years before UMI was created.
The 7X (huge .470 bore) was played by Stan Mark (with MF band at the time) and other lead players. This model was created for real powerhouse players and every trumpeter I knew that bought the new 7X when it came out was a monster player. If the early 80s UMI 7X "wasn't very good" these guys would have never purchased them.
This trumpet cannot be compared to the 3x of recent years. The 7X was strictly for top pros. If you can handle one, go for it! |
Generally, when someone refers to the "UMI Benges", they're talking about the horns made in Eastlake, Ohio, after UMI fired all of the Benge craftsmen and sold off the tooling. That's when the quality went through the floor, and the horns began to have very little resemblance to an actual Benge.
I was under the impression that Stan Mark's weapon of choice was a CG Benge, and later on a Claude Gordon Selmer, both large bore horns. |
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Trptbenge Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2002 Posts: 2390 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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In the very early 80's when UMI bought King, who owned Benge, the horns were still made in California under the watchful eye of Zig Kanstul. Patrick Olguin, the original Benge Nut Website designer, owned one that played incredibly well. Some of these horns had the UMI Serial Numbers on them. However, when they closed the plant in Anaheim and moved everything to Eastlake Ohio the quality and the Benge name went down the toilet. They actually did not want the tooling from California because they had their own. Now this was the same tooling that Burbank and LA Benges had been made using.
I wonder who the genius was that made that decision?
Anyway, it worked out well for Zig, who bought the tooling, and went on with Donald Benge to create the Burbank line of of Trumpets and then later to create the Chicago line. The legacy of the Chicago, Burbank and LA Benges is carried forward in these horns.
Mike _________________ It's the sound that makes the difference! |
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Tristan the man 2000 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 1283 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've played some of the newer Benges and wasn't that satisfied with them. Just my personal opinion, however, I am a pretty big fan of the pre UMI
E-Benges made in Burbank, Chicago, and Los Angeles. While I have only played Los Angeles model E-Benges, I have like every one I've played and am sure the Burbank and Chicago coould only be better. I'd like to own one someday, but as for the current Benges, I'm just not that impressed. _________________ Kickin' brass and takin' names. |
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JakeUND Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 589
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I had a Benge 7X for about a year. It was supposedly a prototype designed for Mr. Stan Mark. What I can tell you about the horn was that the bell wasn't really too large-about normal sized. It was very, very, very, very light weight. Literally felt so light that you felt like you could crush it if you held it too tight. It is .470 bore- it also plays like it. It's very free blowing. It's a decent horn. I purchased it from the lead player in Percy Sledge's band who had used it while touring. I sold it to a guy on ebay who dropped it and completely crushed the bell somehow- he sent me back pictures. It's sad to see a quite rare horn go to waste like that. It played quite decent though, I just sold it to pay for a Monette B6L and some college loan payments. Try it out, you might really like it. It's alot of fun to play.
Sincerely,
jake _________________ Lawler C7R
Leblanc T357
Monette B4S/B4L S1 |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Trptbenge wrote: | They actually did not want the tooling from California because they had their own. Now this was the same tooling that Burbank and LA Benges had been made using.
I wonder who the genius was that made that decision? |
I think he is now the Director of Labor Relations at Conn-Selmer, Inc. |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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plankowner110 wrote: | Trptbenge wrote: | They actually did not want the tooling from California because they had their own. Now this was the same tooling that Burbank and LA Benges had been made using.
I wonder who the genius was that made that decision? |
I think he is now the Director of Labor Relations at Conn-Selmer, Inc. |
I'm sure the egos were huge at UMI at the time. After all, they'd bought King . . . they'd bought Conn . . . and they inherited Benge from King.
I'm sure they felt their Ohio craftsmen were equal to those working for Zig and I'm sure they felt their design team could clone the old Benge tooling and make it "better."
I'm glad they felt like that . . . for it gave us Kanstul, probably the best high brass maker in America today. If they'd kept the old tooling they would have only screwed up the assembly . . . and not just "everything."
LET'S TRACE THE UNBROKEN LINEAGE OF GREAT HORN MAKERS FROM 1824 TO THE PRESENT . . .
In 1824, William Graves founded his quite famous company to make quality instruments.
E.G. Wright formed his famous company in 1839 and had a reputation as a premiere horn maker! He was a great pioneer in the development of our valved instruments. Along the way he partnered with the famous Patrick Gilmore, as well as Eisbach and Hartman. Gilmore actually ran the factory after the Civil War, and personally tested and tweaked each high brass instrument made!
In 1869 the elderly Graves partnered with his brother AND E.G. Wright, Eisbach, Hartman and Reed. . . to found the "mother of all" premier 19th century brass companies, the Boston Company (famous for the 3-Star cornet). Man . . . the EXPERIENCE THIS TEAM HAD WAS INCREDIBLE!
At Boston, a young horn maker was hired . . . named James York became a great craftman and designer.
In 1882, James York left the Boston Company, and founded the York Company with his brother . . . and ended up hiring and teaching a young man named Foster Reynolds the art of making great horns . . . in the tradition of Wright-Graves-Gilmore-Eisbach-York!
Foster Reynolds was hired by H.N. White (of King trombone fame) in 1904 to design White's "King" cornets and trumpets. During this time the King high brass instruments became as famous in their own right as the trombones had for H.N. White that were designed by Mr. King years before!
Foster Reynolds remained there for nearly 30 years. Reynolds then started HIS own company that made wonderful horns (many which looked a lot like Kings and were evolutionary) . . . before selling his company in the late 40's
Foster then was lured back by his friends at Olds to run the Olds factory in the 1950s . . . where Foster trained a young Zig Kanstul in the tradition of excellence of Wright-Graves-York-Reynolds . . . and now . . . Kanstul.
When Foster retired, Zig took over running the Olds factory while it was in Fullerton, CA. Zig also began consulting with Benge in Los Angeles to improve their horns and streamline production.
Zig Kanstul eventually took over as manager of Benge . . . then founded The Burbank Trumpet Co. with partner Donald Benge (son of Eldon) . . . and then finally evolved it into the Kanstul company we have today.
This unbroken string of hard-working men with a passion for producing very high quality brass instruments goes back over ONE-HUNDRED AND EIGHT YEARS . . . and counting!
No other horn company can claim a feat like this . . . yet some places in America say "Kanstul WHO?" Kanstul never set out to be the BIGGEST!
Thanks Mr. Graves! I'll be you'd be amazed today . . . to see what you started!
Tom Turner |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Well done, Tom.
Richard Oliver _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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marcX Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 179
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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tom turner wrote: | Zig Kanstul eventually took over as manager of Benge . . . then founded The Burbank Trumpet Co. with partner Donald Benge (son of Eldon) . . . and then finally evolved it into the Kanstul company we have today.
This unbroken string of hard-working men with a passion for producing very high quality brass instruments goes back over ONE-HUNDRED AND EIGHT YEARS . . . and counting! |
Thanks for all the info, Tom. Wouldn't John Duda (former apprentice of Kanstul/Benge, now maker of the Calicchio horns) fit into that lineage, too?
Marc |
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swordfishtrombone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Not Detroit, Not Naples
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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As always, great stuff, Tom! I guess I was a bit surprised that you did'nt throw Dr. Olson's name into the mix. His design and engineering prowess was crucial to this genre. Also, if you've got time, how about a history lesson on the Martin Commitee? It's an interesting tale of heavyweight input, would'nt you say? Thanks again, Tom! _________________ Equipment: Trumpets, Bass Guitars, Racing Bicycles and hot rod Merc outboards. If it don't blow yer wig back- don't want it! |
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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Tom LeCompte wrote: | It was a .470 bore, and I think had a very large bell, but I couldn't tell you if the bell was the same or different than any other model. I believe Stan Mark played one for a while.
There may have been a few made in Los Angeles, again, I couldn't speak to that.
I don't agree with Tristan's assertion that all UMI horns are bad. I played a 3X made late in the LA era that was excellent. |
I just it. An old, new stock Benge 7 made in about 1979. It was in a store that went out of business. It is very light, bright, and .470. Big sound but controls very nicely. Great lead horn. _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists. |
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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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JakeUND wrote: | I had a Benge 7X for about a year. It was supposedly a prototype designed for Mr. Stan Mark. What I can tell you about the horn was that the bell wasn't really too large-about normal sized. It was very, very, very, very light weight. Try it out, you might really like it. It's alot of fun to play.
Sincerely,
jake |
Jake, great description. That is exactly what this is like. _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
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StevenPSparks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 1386 Location: Daytona Beach, FL
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Brian Moon wrote: | Tom LeCompte wrote: | It was a .470 bore, and I think had a very large bell, but I couldn't tell you if the bell was the same or different than any other model. I believe Stan Mark played one for a while.
There may have been a few made in Los Angeles, again, I couldn't speak to that.
I don't agree with Tristan's assertion that all UMI horns are bad. I played a 3X made late in the LA era that was excellent. |
I just it. An old, new stock Benge 7 made in about 1979. It was in a store that went out of business. It is very light, bright, and .470. Big sound but controls very nicely. Great lead horn. |
Nice way to sneak an ad for a marketplace posting in, without actually doing it...... _________________ Sparks in Daytona
"I'm older now, so don't be a blowhard"
¦\___oTTT_____
¦/ (__o¦¦¦o__) |
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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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StevenPSparks wrote: | Nice way to sneak an ad for a marketplace posting in, without actually doing it......
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It isn't for sale at this time. But thanks for the plug in case I do sell it. _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists. |
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StevenPSparks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 1386 Location: Daytona Beach, FL
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Brian Moon wrote: | StevenPSparks wrote: | Nice way to sneak an ad for a marketplace posting in, without actually doing it......
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It isn't for sale at this time. But thanks for the plug in case I do sell it. |
Oh please......Pull the ad, then submit the posting? Great way to be honest there, Brian..... _________________ Sparks in Daytona
"I'm older now, so don't be a blowhard"
¦\___oTTT_____
¦/ (__o¦¦¦o__) |
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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: |
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I forgot I had an ad for this horn. I decided not to sell. The ad is still there. Shall I pull it now? Forget it. I just pulled it. It's not FS. _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists. |
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naat New Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 1
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:53 pm Post subject: UMI Benge 7 |
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I bought a UMI Benge 7 about a month ago. The plating/finish/whatever has been stripped, so it's raw brass, with a little corrosion. Serial 974412. Bell is marked "Resno-Tempered Bell 7 custom built by E-BENGE USA". Middle valve case right side is marked LP, which I'm told means large-plus size bore. Lady at the store told me it was .470".
I gather from googling around that this is from Eastlake, Ohio, around 1986. Valves work well, good compression. Horn is very lightweight and free blowing. Average sized bell. Has a good, distinctive tone that works for any style, and good intonation. The lady at the store was actually talking some trash about UMI Benge, but I liked the horn so much I had to take it home. It just plays for me, very responsive. I bought it when my Stradivarius 37 was stolen, and I'm much happier than I was with the 37. I feel like it let me take my playing to the next level.
No doubt what UMI did was ****ty, and maybe on aggregate UMI Benges aren't so good, but I love this horn. |
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