no pressure

[spanky]

let me preface with "i love MF". that being said,
i saw him this past summer in concert. he was great and his band was alot of fun to listen to. after the concert i told my wife that we may have seen one of his last concerts. he is very heavy now and seems to have a hard time breathing, maybe he was sick, i don't know. i felt bad for him though. i do know he didn't play much, he left that to his band, he just threw a few things in during the concert. the twenty minutes being talked about is what i saw as well.

[dawnfrenzy]

This maynard this is interesting and seeing its related to lip pressure might as well keep going here.

Personally when I listen to Maynard on a recording he's spot on everytime. But when he played in Melbourne earlier this year, it was like freaklip suggested, only about 20% of the time he played. He seemed to blast out those high notes for a bit, and then need to recuperate.
And this is the whole thing about lip pressure. My teacher, who as i said can play super c regurlarly (super c umm....5 and a half lines above the clef) has to play like this for hours on end [latin gigs], and he attributes being able to do this to this method of no ot low pressure. Of course after some time of doing this he just has to add pressure because his chops get stuffed.

Its interesting you say Maynard has amazingly strong lip muscles. I noticed that my teacher has amazingly strong stomach muscles that seem to pelt out each note. And his tone doesnt suffer for those of you that are interested.

Might I add that Maynard, being in his seventies now [i think], is a fine example of a great trumpet player. Whatever method he uses hes still up there at the top in my opinion.

I'm using the same exercises my teachers using. He said it should take about 2 years at my pace. So ask me again in two years whether its worked...

[DSR]

Playing with no pressure makes an enormous volume of sound next to impossible. I think it would be suitable to say that one should employ ample grip pressure in order to create a hermetic seal. Or, a minimum amount of pressure.

[Emb_Enh]

dawnfrenzy writes:
But when he [MF] played in Melbourne earlier this year, it was like freaklip suggested, only about 20% of the time he played.
=============================

well he is 106yrs old now...and he's been doin' it for a LONG time...cut the guy some slack...

oh yeh...and there is no such thing as "NO mpc pressure" ...you need some to seal the lips/mpc...

also...

how much pressure in lbs/per square inch do you use?

how much pressure in lbs/per square does your friend use?

how much pressure in lbs/per square inch should anyone use?

Is that on one note or is there different pressures for all notes?...for you?...same for your friend?

my whole point is...

you can't measure it by just typing about it...we may one day be able to buy a gadget by which we can all compare ourselves...but...what about lip tissue make up?...mpc rim?...we would all need to use exactly the same eqipment for the test...and...

we would all need to eat the same breakfast too! --ahha!!
_________________
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[dawnfrenzy]

Hey Rod,

Like i said before, it really depends on the player, and generally, when i say no mp pressure your right i really should have said low mp pressure because, as you stated, it would be next to impossible to play with none.

I'll cut maynard some slack, hes a great trumpet player, im just using him to show two different methods of playing, low mp pressure and high mp pressure, depending on what type of player you are one may be better than the other.

Theres no need to measure lip pressure, i think its enough to say low or lots to tell whats going on. From what ive seen, low pressure players tend to be able to play longer up high. But then i may not have seen much compared to some of you guys.

What you say about sound is interesting. My friend/teacher plays in a latin band, a proffesional one (well not world class but you get the picture), so he can go high, he has to play loud (its a latin band!) and from what ive heard his tone dont suffer to badly either.

He's using his breathing to compensate for the lip pressure (at least thats what i think hes doing), breathing from the part just below the rib cage and pulling in real hard. Dont know if this helps.

What I guess I've said here. Is that maynard plays real well and uses heaps of mp pressure. My friend, although no maynard, and i dont feel right comparing him to mf, can play proffesionally and successfully with little mp pressure.

So its up to you... Which one works best for you?

Cheers, Jem


[ This Message was edited by: dawnfrenzy on 2002-09-24 10:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dawnfrenzy on 2002-09-24 10:10 ]

[spanky]

ya, this one went way off topic.

back to air pressure. i've noticed that when i've practiced more during the week my endurance increases and i can use less mpc pressure longer during my playing. but once i get tired, here comes the mpc pressure. is there anyway to increase endurance without having to practice so much?

[PC]

Rich,

I'm surprised Don didn't step in here, so I'll do it (after zipping up my new flame retardant suit):

BeboppinFool:
"Doc Reinhardt always talked about neutralized pressure. In other words, 5 lbs. of pressure in one direction (the chops pushing toward the mouthpiece) + 5 lbs. of pressure in the opposite direction (the horn pushing toward the face) = 0 lbs. of pressure, because the pressure has been neutralized."

No, this is not correct, fer crying out loud! (sorry, couldn't resist, since reading that line in one of your posts, I adopted it immediately and cannot end a sentence since without using it)

Pressure arises in an object as a result of the external forces acted upon it. In our example, pulling the trumpet with 10N in the direction of your teeth will result in a comparable and opposite force (in direction) exerted by the teeth on the poor lips which happen to be in the way. The pressure on the lips will be those same 10N divided by the surface area of lips in contact with teeth/mouthpiece (in square meters, time you US guys started using sensible units, fer crying out loud (there you go again, I need a cure fast!)). So the pressure is nowhere 0, especially if you on top of that voluntarily compress the lips. What is true is that the net force is 0, keeping the lips in place and not accelerating wildly into your throat.

Now what Doc probably meant was that even if pressing the mouthpiece like mad onto your face, if you flex the lips and keep them away from sharp teeth edges, you will not damage them, so in this sense pressure isn't bad for your lips. The worst case that might happen is that you freeze the vibrations and no sound comes out (I used to be an expert at that). What really hurts the lips is pressure plus twisting or manipulation against the teeth when trying to force out a note or a tone (usually in the high register). This is discussed in the topic "Caruso for beginners" in the Caruso forum, if I understood the point correctly.

Just yesterday, I "calesthenised" myself through arpeggios up to B a half step under dubba C and I used a lot of pressure (as I was playing uninterrupted arpeggio from below the staff to progressively higher but always coming back to the low note). Usually I rest quite a bit after that but yesterday I was forced to proceed immediately to music playing as the kids were getting hungry (and noisy). Well, to my surprise, there was no problem whatsoever playing delicate stuff, and there is no mark on my lips today, fer crying out loud (OK this is the last one).

All for now (stepping down into my nuke shelter) from Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-09-25 04:55 ]

[trptsbaker]

Just saw Maynard this summer (opened the show for him, local band, that was some big fun) and Maynard used lots of pressure on his lips and scared the living * out everyone there with the sheer power of his sound and played long, lyrical, inventive solos and played lead lines and kissed off triple-high F's and played gorgeous flugelhorn solos all night long, and now I find out that he was playing on a new mouthpiece for the first time that night, up here in Colorado altitude. He's Maynard. No one expected to hear THAT, however. That was so cool. Tom.

[trumpetman]

had a chance to see maynard at a evening concert at a local high school once about 5 to 6 yrs ago.well,he didn't actually play very many numbers,i guess around 6 to 8.the longest number was when they played, when the saints go marching in , they all played while they marched around the inside of the auditorium.
after wards,he went into a winnebago parked in back of the place, ate few small sandwiches that were on some platter.he then came in and sat at a little small table and signed about 20 or so autographs.what suprised me,was that his top lip he had an indent off- center the size of about a nickel,it looked more bruised and damaged .I was there standing thinking,shouldn't the ring on the lip disappeared by now. or at least not looked like he should be in some serious pain...as it had already been about 45 minutes or so since he had finished the concert...I understand he has played longer that most horn players have been alive..a true legend
I just flashed back to that memory because some the guys were posting about no pressure----some pressure and so on.
I was thinking ....damn maynard uses a HELL of alot of pressure...i guess it works for him
I've gotten a chance to talk to arturo sandoval and phil driscoll after theyve played and didnt see that type obvious indentation..i guess they dont need some much pressure to play those high notes

[trumpetplayer87]

I realize I'm a little late in replying, this message is probably stuffed away somewhere where no one will see it but I think the reason I found playing with less pressure so helpful is because I had a problem using too much pressure. Thanks for all the replies though
bonnie

[jam]

I've been working on using very little pressure and I think I'm doing something wrong. I'm CP with about a 20 year layoff. Back in the day, I used to ram the MPC into my face. Nobody told me any differently and I could force out high Cs with some consistency but that was about it (and my endurance was quite limited). Now that I've picked up the horn again those high Cs don't come so easily anymore. What's worse - now that I'm older, I actually use my brain and think about what the hell I'm doing and I have access to a wealth of information on Forums like this. So, every time I play I'm thinking about my chin, my upper lip, my lower lip, my tongue, my teeth, my air flow but mostly... my pressure. As I resist the urge to press the MPC against my face, I find that I drop an entire octave and the quality of the tone degrades. I can't even play F on top of the staff with light pressure. Very frustrating.

Any ideas about what I might be doing wrong and practice tips on how to do it right?

[_bugleboy]

jam,

So, every time I play I'm thinking about my chin, my upper lip, my lower lip, my tongue, my teeth, my air flow but mostly... my pressure. ......snip ........ Any ideas about what I might be doing wrong and practice tips on how to do it right?

All those things you mentioned that you are thinking about everytime you play are exactly what you are doing wrong.

[jam]

Touché.

Lemme try again. When I “play”, I just play. Which is fun. When I “practice”, I try to think about what I’m doing right and wrong - so I can be a better player and have more fun when I want to just play.

The apparent consensus is that pressure is bad - which makes some sense to me. So, when I “practice”, I’ve been trying to lighten up on the pressure. But when I do this the sound and range are so terrible that I feel I must be overlooking something.

A few more facts may help:
My top lip tends to overlap my bottom lip – especially as I fatigue
My MPC covers more of my bottom lip than my top lip
I have a slight overbite.
I do not push my jaw forward – it stays pretty much neutral

Any help would be appreciated.

[_bugleboy]

Jam,

My remark was not intended as a jousting response. But thinking about all the things you mentioned is counterproductive for developing any kind of reflex muscular action in your embouchure. So the more you try to do the "right" thing by thinking about it, the less developed and balanced your muscles become.

To get the muscles to do the right things you must somehow remove all thinking directed towards them, and just blow. And you do this with a good practice regimen and with appropriate exercises that will expose the muscles to the demands of playing.

Playing should be fun. Practice should be repetition.

Don't be afraid of pressure. As the embouchure develops, the pressure will start to come off, but you can't put the cart before the horse. Developed muscles first, reduced pressure second.

The physical nature of your lips (size), jaw, over bite, etc., are not important or anything to be concerned with as long as they are functioning normally.

[AccentOnTrumpet]

Pressure is not a cause, it is an effect. If you're using too much pressure it's because something else is not quite right. You might be gripping the horn too hard, your aparture might be too wide, you might be pushing yourself into the horn (just being tense in general) or you might not be using enough air. I had the latter problem for a while and now feel like I'm using a lot less pressure than I used to. Don't feel bad about it if you do, because many great players suffered from excess pressure in their formative years: Miles, Clifford Brown, Bill Chase, Dizzy and many others (in both jazz and classical but I won't go calling everyone out). Some people have it all wrong completely, but it can be fixed and telling someone to ease up on the pressure may not necessarily help. You have to get to the root of the problem and change it, then the pressure will go away. I just don't like when teachers will say "Stop forcing", or "use less pressure" or the infamous "your embouchure is all wrong". I've had people I know at school ask me for tips on that because their own teachers don't give them a good solution. I've had teachers who didn't give me a good solution, because just telling people what's wrong doesn't help, you have to tell people how to fix the problem, and then the pressure will ease off.