Arched Tongue High Register - NAY!

PorkChops · Regular Member Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

I don't agree with the popular theory that practicing lip trilling and pronouncing the "eee" syllable (using the arched tongue method) is the best way to improve the upper register. I did this in high school, and all it got me was a very thin and out of tune C-E above the staff. This method made my sound very small, brassy, and the intonation was difficult to control. The reason I think it did this was because the air pressure and velocity was being controlled before the air hit the lips. Also the arch forced the air to decend downwards from the roof of the mouth, which is a very contorted path.

I've recently found that if I use more of my gut and lip to produce the high notes and keep the tongue low and out of the way, my sound is MUCH LARGER, the intonation is MUCH more accurate, the attack is crisp, and it just feels better overall. I leave the tongue alone, and simply use it for articulation, not for register control. The only time I don't use the tongue for articulation, I use it for trilling. I do believe that trilling is best assisted by the tongue.

I just can't imagine maynard ferguson or pronouncing an "eee" when he's drowning out the rest of the band with a double-c. =) Not that i'm that good, but I think "eee" just doesn't let enough air through to really fill up the horn with air.

Any comments??

PorkChops · Regular Member Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

BTW - I came to this realization after reading a comment posted by Pops, the apparent high register ~God Father~
However he still believes in arching the tongue.

Any comments pops?
=)

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:34 pm Post subject:

Hey,

I think that you may have been taking the whole "eeeeeeee" thing a little far. Whether or not you realize it, you are still doing it. Maybe not to the extent which you think that it "requires". But you are still doing it (more than likely). It shouldn't be a forced arch so that there is almost no room for the air to move through the tongue and the roof of the mouth. But there will still be an arch, you just need to compensate that with more air power, which in turn leads to the increased velocity, higher notes.

Just my thoughts,
Nick
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tcutrpt · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject:

I agree with Nick. The tongue will always play a role in the register you're playing in. It might not be the number one factor for everyone for playing higher, but it certainly does play a role. Check out "Brass Playing is no Harder than Deep Breathing" if you still don't believe me. Claude Gordon had a doctor run tests on several players including many who didn't feel the tongue was important. All were suprised to see the results and discover that in every single case, the tongue arched as they ascended. With all this in mind, if you've found something that works, GREAT! Even if you don't notice any movement, I still bet it's there. It's just the way it is. Of course, this is all just my opinion based on scientific fact. I'm glad your chops are working well.

Matt

MF Fan · Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:13 am Post subject:

Like most things, it's a matter of degree. If you over-arch your tongue, relative to the amount of air you're pushing, you get the less-than ideal sound you describe. The challenge is to practice finding the optimal BALANCE between arch, air speed, air volume, etc. for each note. Herbert Clark, and later Claude Gordon taught the use of the "modified K-tongue" technique in place of using the "traditional" tip of the tongue behind the top teeth method of articulation. A primary benefit is it helps you learn the correct feel, i.e. degree of tongue arch, for each note.

PorkChops · Regular Member Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

Thanks of the comments everyone,

Today I did noticed that my tongue is arched, but not to the degree that I'd used it in High School. I think, like anything, you can over-do. These days I'm much more concerned with volume and sound, or maybe its just that I listen to Bobby Shew all day. My body tends to resist any muscle movement that causes a restriction in sound intensity. But never-the-less, the tongue is playing a supporting role indeed!

A lesson in balance i guess?

John

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:12 am Post subject:

Hey,

I would say so indeed. I think that we all need to look at this and evaluate if there are any "good & necessary" things that we are doing in our playing. And see if we are over doing them. There is such as thing as too much. A little water never hurt anyone, but a lot can kill you.

Nick
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AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

You can arch your tongue until it touches the tip of your brain but it isn't going to help your range if your aparture and airflow aren't working correctly. I personally don't agree with that philosophy at all, but maybe that's just me. Teachers have mentioned the idea to me before but I just think the idea is too far-fetched and really is indifferent, but that's just my opinion. I have practiced "tongue" arching at home before but it doesn't help, the real help is getting the aparture smaller and to use a good steady air flow. That helps most.

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:17 am Post subject:

Good. You get the idea then.
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_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:05 am Post subject:

A quick comment in Pops' defense (surprised he ain't chipped in yet): In his books (and many comments on-line) he specifically discourages using too much arch, as it cuts off the air and thins the sound. Sound familiar? Moderation in all things, that's the ticket... FWIW -Don
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_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:25 am Post subject:

Thanks Don,

Well Put. (and kinda the whole thought pattern of this thread)

Nick
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richszabo · Regular Member Joined: 16 Nov 2001 Posts: 34 Location: USA

Tongue arching "EEEEE" is used to compress the air stream. Once the desired note slots, you can drop the tongue which will add the volume and fatness to the note. MF definately uses a tongue arch as do most players who can play well above the staff. You have to find the sweet spot that works for you.
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