Mouthpiece Position

[bigjohntexas]

I am looking for advice. When I play my tone is not how I would like it to be. I hear some trumpet players who can make the Bb concert scale sound beautiful, like it is an actual piece. Although, my tone is not so. I have played lead trumpet in Jazz for 4 year partly because I can play really high (double c). I have a teacher who says that my mouthpiece position must be changed to get a better tone, but I'll loose my range, as I play mostly lower lip and a little to the right I never had a private teacher in high school and obtained this bad habit. Although, i have talked to a couple other teaches and they say that the positioning doesn't matter because there are many unorthodox players who have become great and that good tone just comes with time. So my question: Should I change my mouth piece position or not? I would like many opionions so please post!!! Thanks...

[Mr.Hollywood]

It's sounds as though you might be an upsteam type.

A big beautiful sound is not something that the upsteam type is known for. But that doesn't mean that you can't improve it.

Let me ask you an honest question.... Do you sit around all day sreaming high notes because they come easy to you?

As far as the off center placement goes, if you are getting results in the high register than I wouldn't worry about it.

Remember that there are guys out there who can make you cry with a middle 'C' who would give their right arm to have your range.

There are no absolutes in trumpet playing.


Chris

[LeeC]

Good reply Chris,

The original post raises some interesting points. All of us have our strengths and weaknesses.

My experience is similar to the described one but with a twist. I always had a very good tone on a type lll embouchure and my range is good (FAT high G) but it's a LOT OF WORK to maintain my register. Just like the good doctor said; Downstream types seem to use a lot more air and find their upper registers hard to blow (loosely quoted).

AND my extreme upper register (above a high G) is VERY difficult and not worth the effort. Fortunately a high G is all a trumpet player really needs, however I have still spent quite a few years trying to perfect an alternative embouchure in order to make register easier.

The good Doctor probably would have advised me against such action. I've heard him quoted as saying "you can't fight Mother Nature". Never-the-less I've recently had some success playing an alternative embouchure that PROBABLY resembles a type lV. Jeezus you don't know how hard it has been to work the kinks out of it, but I now can play a fairly easy double C. It took me some serious work and about ten years trial and error plus a self designed/self made oversize mouthpiece in order to get some satisfactory sound out of it. Also too, I've had to practice twice as much because I still have to maintain my original embouchure.

So maybe it's possible that the upstream trumpet player could reverse engineer his embouchure and play "downstream" but such an action isn't for the faint of heart. For me the concept of embouchure change seemed acceptable because i REALLY WANTED A useable double C and then some. I'd been playing OVER TWENTY YEARS at the time and figured if my original embouchure was going to be able to play a good double C it would have progressed to that point already. Also, I'd previously been fairly successful at doubling on trombone, French Horn and the various pitched trumpets SO I already knew that I could adapt myself to another embouchure if I persevered. Of course the problem was; Would a new embouchure ACTUALLY WORK? I now know that it does, but I didn't know that at first. Plus my first embouchure change ( to Roy Stevens embouchure) to upstream (before my successful change) had failed.

One can really trip out over this embouchure stuff. Generally I agree with you Chris, tell him to keep the bird in the hand, leave the two in the bush. Another thing I agree with is the very distinct possibility that the above mentioned upstream cat plays too many high notes for his own good. Why do I think so, BECAUSE I PLAY TOO MANY DAMN HIGH NOTES for my own good!

Riddles;

1. Why does the upsteam trumpet player blow so many high notes?

2. Why does my dog lick his balls? (Answers below)



Same answer; Because they can!

Lee

[Mr.Hollywood]

Lee,

I really enjoyed your post. Any type can play anything they want to if they are willing to do the work and make some sacrifices.

Without even seeing you or hearing you play I'll bet that you are playing too loud in the middle and lower registers. This is the downsteamers undoing......Too much sound in the middle and low......And NO SOUND IN THE TOP!

I'm a IIIB with a double 'C' ON THE BANDSTAND. ( listen to my clips on Warburtons web site)
I constantly have to watch how much sound I'm putting out in the middle and low so that I don't loose my top. Many times I've played a show with no high notes in it, and I'll say to myself "What the hell, I don't have to play any high notes tonight, I let myself go." When I do this the result is always the same....... NO CHOPS AT THE END OF THE GIG ! And the next day I have hell to pay warming up.

Listen my friend, I don't want to see you get into any chop trouble. If you are willing to give up some "bigness", "fatness" or whatever you want to call it you can have your double 'C' as a downstreamer and ON ONE EMBROUCHURE.

Erick Miyashiro, Chuck Findley, Lynn Nicholson, Keith Green, Brain McDonald ( lead Air Men of Note) and Maynard Ferguson (yes M.F is a IIIB, Doc told me so.) These players are all type IIIB and play to double 'C' and beyond.

I hope your "double embouchure" works out for you. But if not, feel free to ask for any help you need here on this forum.

Best of luck, and good chops to you.

Chris

[airdyn]

Chris....are you responding to bigjohntexas or leesbrass? It seems that bigjohn is a IV trying to get a good middle register and someone told him to change from his low position - off center placement ( he is told that this is wrong!???) and that leesbrass has already successfully switched from a III to a IV and is having no problems concerning this. Maybe bigjohn and/or leesbrass can further elucidate their situation. ...Chris, what you are saying is really right on the money for a III wanting to "go up" and cut back on middle and low register volume... I just wanted to know whom you were addressing. They both are Upstream IV's ... if what they say is accurate. A IV needs to "bring the top down!" and concentrate on Legato Tongue in the middle register to get the beautiful ballad playing that a III gets.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-03-27 09:37 ]

[LeeC]

Innaccuracy in my previous post:

Wanted to clear up a mistatement in my prior post. Very sorry for making the mistake. I was incorrect about my dog's situation. He actually was castrated at an early age (Humane Society rules) and can not actually lick himself in the area I stated above. Sorry if this caused anyone inconvenience.

The staff here at Leesbrass regrets the error... Lee Cahalan

In The S/F Bay area? Come see Lee play "Boy Meets Horn" with Golden Gate Radio Orchestra on May 3. A chart often played by the Ellington band. Got to: http://www.radiorch.org/schedule.html for tickets

[Mr.Hollywood]

Hi Dave,

I was responding to Lee.

I take it that he has not totally stopped using his "downstream embrouchure" because he says; "I've had to practice twice as much to maintain my original embrouchure".

He also used the words "alternative embrouchure". I took that to mean not so much a complete change, but an alternative way of playing in the upper register when needed.

Take Care,


Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-03-27 10:35 ]

[LeeC]

Hey Chris,

Am talking about a totally different embouchure alltogether. It's so different from my regular receded jaw embouchure that I might as well be playing a different instrument. It sure plays higher and a lot easier though. Still got some small kinks to work out of it. It isn't enough to create a new embouchure with high notes even after getting some accuracy Still have to prove it in the concert arena. As I get older I tend to take fewer risks. It is a good embouchure for recording. Feels more comfortable when I can hit the erase switch and re-dub at will. Should be putting this on the net sometime down the road. Very busy with work and other commitments now.

True a lot of scream players do play type lllB downstream, but I don't see a lot of Standard type lll's ("Jelly Roll") blowing a lot of double C's though I've some. Correct me if I'm wrong but your type lllB usually plays with a more level horn angle relative to the face. As a standard type lll I play with a more significantly lower horn angle. To the best of my knowledge all of the type lllB scream players you mentioned play with horn angles only slightly lower than horizontal. It's my hypothesis that these type lllB's are able to use the lower lip in a more efficient manner and so can blow easier high notes.

At one time I felt that type lll (standard) players probably couldn't be good scream players. Maybe a high G or so like I have but no doubles. Then I went to see Maynard's most recent ensemble and both his lead player and the jazz book player were playing type lll standard with very low horn angles. Blows the theory as an absolute but there still is some merit to the concept.

You had talked about playing softer in midrange etc. Now one interesting thing is that I can get my scream range to speak with less stress if I play whisper high ones, BUT... It is still so much easier to play high notes (high G or better) on my type lV. The act of "sitting" on a double C is relatively easy on my new embouchure but inconceivable on my type lll standard.

You really gotta see this homeade mouthpiece I use on type lV if only for laughs. It has an inner rim diameter of over three quarters of an inch! The embouchure is formed by creating air pockets above the lips and a few other cheek and jaw manipulations.

That's all for now
Lee

[Mr.Hollywood]

Lee,

Just one question....Are you switching back and fourth between the two on a daily basis?



Chris