Question About Transposing , sight reading .

trjeam · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2001 6:19 pm Post subject:

Could anyone out there tell me whats the best to go about learning how to transpose faster ?
What are some things I can do ?

Also about sight reading . What are some things I could do to improve the sight reading skills ? When Im sight reading how can I tell if I'm sight reading something correct ?

Thanks

big brian · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 440

screamertrumpet · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:07 pm Post subject:

jeam,
Like Brian said, sightreading/transposing is very important. In fact, that's one of the main reason I didn't make the local orchestra. I was good in C but I needed A!!! Yes, it may not seem hard (a half step down), but for me, it was. I had D down pretty well, but it was A that got me.
Another really good book you may consider buying (I don't know, it cost about $20) is Concone's Complete Solfeggi. I work out of this from transposing everynight. I think Concone has some other books out that may cost less, but I'm not sure since I've never seen them, only heard about them.
Arban's is good for transposing also (try to do the characteristic studies). Oh yeah, in Arban, there should be a song called Aceton way in the solo section. You need to transpose from A.
And of course, orchestral excerpts are a must (my book makes you transpose to f altissimo)
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Trevor

P.S. Shhh. Don't tell this to anyone. This has got to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen for transposition. Check this out:
http://www.petrouska.com/chart3.htm
Do that with a metronome and increase your speed.

Chicagoman · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:18 am Post subject:

Hey Jeam,
I rarely play Bb trumpet anymore, so I must transpose everything I come across to Bb on C trumpet. I'll give you some tips that are VERY important:

1. KNOW your scales forwards and backwards. Learn them in 3rd's, 4th's and 5th's.

2. This is the MOST important(a lot of pro's can't do this): SIGHT SINGING. If you can hear the intervals in your head and can hear the notes in general, your sight reading with transposition will GREATLY improve. You will only have to concentrate on styling.

3. Transpose anything you can find. Lyrical songs are my recommendation.

The skill of being able to transpose to any key on any horn, and being to do it at sight is CRITICAL in the "Real world" of playing.

I can't stress enough to develop the skill of singing ALL of your music, as well as buzzing it on the mouthpiece. It will prove an invaluable skill later in your career. Good luck!

Oh yeah, Hi to Brian and Trevor!! This is a COOL sight! But Trevor, I looked at that sight, and I don't quite understand what it means. Could you explain?

P.S. This is a useful tip on tranposing up a 4th from Bb trumpet to Eb. Read it in Bass Clef. You must learn to read in Bass Clef anyway. So kill two birds with one stone.

Sincerely,

Chicagoman
DF

_________________
'Don't learn how to play correctly, learn how to sound good.'
~Arnold Jacobs

[ This Message was edited by: Chicagoman on 2001-11-21 11:25 ]

screamertrumpet · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 4:12 pm Post subject:

Hi DF,

Sure I'll explain it. Print it out. (Ithink it's easier to save it as a.jpg and print it from there, because if you don't, it might get cut off in your printer).
Follow the course and pick a key you want to be in. Let's pick D for starters. Transpose from Bb to D. So the place where it starts is the note g. Say the letter "B" (because we're transposing to D, right?). The next note is an E, so say the letter "G#". Got it?
The next thing you can do is not say the word, but finger it on your horn (or without).
Be sure you set a metronome and do it in time. I usually like 70bpm for starters.
If you have any questions, please ask. I think this is a great tool to help strengthen coordination skills. Oh yeah, DF, you mentioned a great thing. SCALES! You most know all of them (or at least majors). They're essential to transposition.

Trevor

[ This Message was edited by: screamertrumpet on 2001-11-21 19:13 ]

Chicagoman · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 6:54 pm Post subject:

Trevor,
I myself would not use this exercise for the reason being; it doesn't teach you aural pitches, but makes you rely soley on what it looks like. Transposition must be a predominately aural skill in order to be musically effective. You must be able to style while you read and transpose, not just get the notes right. Plus, when I transpose, I want to make sure it's literature, and not just an exercise. I want the result, the product, not the process. That's just my opinion. An interesting concept, however.

Chicagoman

tom turner · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:21 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Good advice already! I'll just add, the fastest way to learn how to transpose is to do it everyday in practice (YUK!). Of course understanding all scales and key signatures is a very basic must.

If you go to college to study trumpet you'll be doing lots of transposition of exercises in your lessons in some really weird keys eventually so you might as well start now. Things are only scary in this world when we don't understand them.

Assuming you are playing a Bb trumpet, I'd recommend that you do your first transpositions as if you were reading concert C material, such as a church hymnal or a piano jazz fake book. The reason for this is that many players who never attend college will find this skill valuable.

How do you find material to transpose? No problem-o . . . simply take an exercise you have mastered normally and "pretend" this came from a piano (key of C) fake book. To make a Bb instrument sound a step higher to play the same notes a C trumpet would be playing, you'll need to read every note UP one full step (two half-steps chromatically) and ADD two sharps to whatever key signature the piece was in.

In other words, if the exercise in your Bb method book in in F (one flat), pretend this is actually a C trumpet method book that would require you to read everything on your Bb trumpet up a step to blend with a C trumpet. One full step (two half steps chromatically) above the key of F is the key of G . . . which has one sharp (two sharps more than the key of F).

Knowing how to transpose C material is great for all Bb players!!! Now, if you play a C trumpet, do the opposite. Read your mastered exercise DOWN one full step and add two flats so you can play Bb trumpet parts!

Why use an exercise you know at first? . . . because you'll know when you play a wrong note!!!

The next most valuable transposition for a Bb player is to learn how to transpose to the key of D, since many baroque trumpet parts are keyed for D trumpet and you may only have a Bb with you on a gig. For this, read the D part UP two full steps (four half steps chromatically) and add FOUR sharps to the written key signature. Imagine going to a church Easter musical rehearsal and discover that one of your pages in for a D trumpet and you can't play it--scary huh?

Conversely, I've done some musicals before, or done weddings before where the arrangements I'm handed are written for the common Bb trumpets but which sound better (because of the correct timbre of the lighter, higher-pitched D trumpet) on a D trumpet. In those cases I like to pull out a D trumpet and visually transpose the Bb part in the other direction on the D trumpet (which means DOWN two full steps and add four FLATS to the key signature. It comes easy with practice and makes the music sound better too!

In college you'll learn to transpose in F, G, Eb, and others to prepare you to be a symphony player the school is proud to graduate but, if you get a head start, this will not be hard when you have developed to that level.

Don't want to be a classical player? Jazz, pop, rock, Dixieland, polka players, etc. will need to read (transpose) instantly from C music on gigs. As a pro or semi-pro player, you'll play in many bands where you are called on at the last minute and never rehearse one minute. It is a "given" that you can do these things. Again, this comes to you as you develop so don't let it scare you off!

If you don't transpose now, start today. You'll sound better and get more work too!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2001-11-21 22:32 ]

tom turner · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:37 pm Post subject:

Hi again,

Sorry, I missed your question about becoming a better sightreader.

Most high school bands are geared to impress the parents, school board and judges on a few pieces of music in the fall and spring. Rare is the band student who is exposed to sightreading music on a regular basis in class. After all, the focus is a superior rating not on developing music majors in college.

GET A PRIVATE TEACHER/COACH
Your private teacher will, or should, kick you out of your "comfort zone" and "force" you to both sightread a lot of material AND "force" you to learn to transpose eventually too. I use the word coach because they'll push you to the next level that you would not have attained without their assistance. You'll be glad you did on district and all-state auditions!

How does getting a teacher help you know when you are playing wrong notes when sightreading or transposing? Well . . . at least THEY'LL know when you screw up and they can stop and show you!!!

Hope this helps!

Tom Turner

screamertrumpet · Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:40 pm Post subject:

Chicagoman,

Yes you do have an interesting concept. One of the main parts of being a musician, is the same word with "ship" attached to it.
I may have said this before, but what I believe separates the men from the boys is style and tone. Transposing with both of those is a +, while just one (tone or style) is just a check.
When I play out of the solfeggi, I do strive for musicianship. So maybe it's just grasping the concept, then putting it in use.
Thanks for sharing your concept with us. Gosh, I feel so lucky. I'm only 14 and I'm getting all this advice from SUCH INTELLIGENT PEOPLE!
It's pretty funny how the people at Eastman use that chart.
Thanks again.

Trevor

brnt99 · Regular Member Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 82

I was wondering, in this modern world of photo-copiers. computers, transposeing software etc etc (paper is 2 cents a sheet) why don't orchestras just provide you with transposed music?Like is trumpet playing supposed to be a macho mano mano strenuous feat? I don't know, do piano players have to transpose their music, or violin players?

walter · Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2001 8:13 pm Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 06:48 ]

schilkeb1l · Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:01 pm Post subject:

I am working on a freeware program for Windows called BowTIE (Brass Transposition Instruction Environment), which I hope trumpeters will find useful for developing transposition skills. The program is still in the early stages of development, but I would appreciate hearing what you pedagogically minded folks think about it. The project home page is at http://bowtie.sourceforge.net.

Regards,
David Randolph

musicmonkey · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 344

Hey, I find this thread very helpful as sight reading and transposing are two areas I am trying to improve now! Thanks to all who have posted their comments!

Also, another question. What about sight reading during your daily routine? Sight reading hasn't really been touched much here (maybe it needs its own thread(?)), so how about some tips for what/how/when to sightread?

mm

Bill Dishman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174

A tool I use with my students is the Clarke Technical Studies Book. Particularly Study II and III. Start with II and play the pattern as written then to do "C" transposition play it one step higher. Ex. C major becomes D major. etc. Then while actually reading the original exercise, play up one whole step. You can check quickly for accuracy by listening and if not sure of a certain note, look at the exercise you are trying to transpose to. Even for new students to transposition, this is a good way to check as you go.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida

David · Veteran Member Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 379

OK I know this question is backing up a step, but why?

Assuming you play a Bb trumpet, why does one NEED to be able to transpose. I know it would be CONVENIENT for playing music written in C, but much of this discussion insists that it is an essential skill for a pro player. When in a real life setting is this a requirement?

trumpet451 · Regular Member Joined: 08 Sep 2002 Posts: 56

David,

Your Why? question brought back a flood of memories. You get to an orchestra rehearsal, and the conductor (or the person charged with music distribution) passes out a new chart (oops! a "composition" or "part" is more classically-oriented terminology), and it is for "Trumpet in E"--did you bring your E trumpet to this rehearsal? The "old masters" wrote for trumpets in a variety of configurations because they appreciated the timbre of those specific horns--or they enjoyed seeing the players modify their horns with pieces of hardware (aka "crooks") to make their existing horn into another-keyed instrument.

In the world of orchestral music, this transposition "thing" is not only a requirement, it is essential for your survival as a musician--and if you are a section principal you will be expected to teach this skill to anyone else who might be rusty (or who is NOT reading TH on a regular basis).

Bill B.

[ This Message was edited by: trumpet451 on 2003-02-08 17:14 ]

James B. Quick · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject:

Transposition is necessary when a band is playing out of fake books. Sometimes five or six guys will all cram in around one book and play...

The method that works for me: Play the scale a few times of the key that the piece is written in, then play the scale a few times of the key that the piece will be played in... Then, when you play, all the notes without accidentals will be in the scale. Accidentals are dealt with as they appear....

Then be glad you're not a french horn player, they are faced with all sorts of weird transposition situations...( according to my friend DL Hundt)

tptguy · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:22 pm Post subject:

Two good resources for transposition:

I think this is a great thread that will help many to tackle a task that most trumpeters find very daunting at first. But trust the experienced players here, it really does get easy if you practice it a bit every day. Here are two books that I and my students have found very helpful:

Most classical players have "Second Book of Practical Studies" by Robert Getchell. If you are at least moderately comfortable with the book, NEVER play it in Bb again! Go through the book and play everything up a step. Then, start other transpositions as discussed above.

Most jazz players have "Rhythms Complete" by Bugs Bower. If you are at least moderately comfortable with the book, NEVER play it in Bb again! Go through the book and play everything up a step. Then, start other transpositions as discussed above.

Best regards, Kyle

oj · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:08 am Post subject:

Quote:
"Then be glad you're not a french horn player, they are faced with all sorts of weird transposition situations"

Yes - you bet!

Like Gusieppe Verdi - he likes to challenge us

In Aida for instance the only horn we did not have was horn in F.
But horn in C, horn in E, horn in Dd, horn in Bb, horn in A etc.

The funny thing for me (coming from trumpet) is that some of my horn colleages
have trouble with horn in Bb!

Usually (if you have a double horn) we play on the Bb side (use F horn only in low register).
So these guys learned to transpone on the Bb (to F).
But some even don't know that they do this (or think about it).

When they see a G in staff they use first finger.
(actually they are playing a D on the Bb horn)

After having played horn for several years it is no problem to see
trumpet in F (lots of it in Mahler) - "piece of a cake"
- I just play as if I have my horn (Bb side) and play in F.

I also play tuba - this give me a bit of trouble with
bass clef on horn - different than tuba (or euphonium).

But practice as several say - also develop this.

The first transposition I would choose as a trumpeter, would be C.
A whole step up! When you see a C you play a D, etc.
Then you can play along with keyboards and organ
- don't have to buy a C trumpet

(read about Herbert Clarke - his autobiography - he learnt this first)

Ole

marktrumpet · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 pm Post subject:

One thing that helps my sightreading and overall concentration level is to transcribe a little bit everyday, at least the rhythms.

I think the people who can't sightread well, simply don't count. To clarify this statement, if you are sightreading a composition in 4/4, it helps me to be thinking 1,2,3,4 in my mind, constantly, especially when a rest comes up. A lot of people just fail to count, miss an entrance, realize they are wrong and freak out.

If I transcribe a little everyday, especially the rhythms, it forces me to work backwards, now putting the sound with the written rhythms, making aural recognition quicker, and sight reading easier. I have found my concentratation is lot better too when I transcribe a little everyday, I'm not sure why.

With regards to transposition, it helps me to mentally practice transposition. Sit with the metronome and just finger through what you are transposing. After, you have heard the piece in your mind and have a clear picture of it, then perform the piece. When you have to do it on a gig, look for the most difficult sections or possible trouble areas. Hopefully, your mental transposition practice will be enough to perform adequately. You are probably not going to have a chance to practice it first on the gig, so being able to mentally hear and perform the transposition is important.

These are the things that help me, and obviously are not the only methods. If you find that these things don't work for you, then don't do them. You are your best teacher, good luck.