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lmf Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 2190 Location: Indiana USA
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Shepherd's crook cornet: Tone advantage or hype? |
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Hi,
Do those "in the know" have any thoughts on this subject. There was a time that shepherd's crook cornets were all there was. Later, they were set aside for longer cornets in some areas (especially USA). Now it is back to shepherd's crook cornets. Is there a tone advantage or hype, or is it just cosmetics?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
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pedaltonekid Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1711
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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I currently play a schilke XA1 (shepherds crook) and before that a DeNicola Puje (Shepherds crook, but a hybrid between cornet and trumpet). To me they both fit the sound concept I have of cornet, compared to the long model horns I have played. The projection of the shepherds crook model isn't as good as on the longer style cornets, but that has never been a problem for the playing I have done with them. _________________ Best Regards, Play Well!! |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I own a shepherd's crook, Getzen 3850. As to a side by side comparison, I've never done one.
I do know my cornet is VERY mouthpiece dependent. I want to say more than trumpets (eek -- hope that doesn't start a tussle -- if it does, I'll happily say "okay you win" to keep the peace).
Put a 3C in versus my Wick 4b or 4, and you have very different sounds being produced.
I want to say comparing crook v straight using a C cup will leave something on the table. No proof to back up my conjecture though. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9375 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Shepherd's crook cornet: Tone advantage or hype? |
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lmf wrote: | Is there a tone advantage or hype, or is it just cosmetics?.... |
I think there's a significant difference in the tone of a good shepherd's crook cornet and a long cornet. There are, however, shepherd's crook cornets that really don't have a different sound from the run-of-the-mill long cornet. This is because the manufacturer just stuck a shepherd's crook (SC) bell on their long model cornet. The extra bend in the bell doesn't really do much if the rest of the horn isn't "tuned" to produce that sound we're looking for in these cornets. It's more a function of the more mellow-sounding cornet having a SC bell installed, than a SC bell giving a cornet a mellow sound, if that makes any sense.
Typically, a cornet with a SC bell will have a shorter bell than a long cornet, and will have a correspondingly longer path from the mouthpiece to the valve cluster, with more bends. This often results in more taper in the leadpipe and a quicker taper in the bell. This, along with brace placement and materials used in manufacture will produce a more mellow cornet. Sure, you can brighten one up with a C cup mouthpiece, and you can darken a long cornet with a deep, funnel-type mouthpiece, but the well-designed short cornet will have a more rich, mellow sound with all other things being equal.
BTW, I've played many older (late 19th, early 20th century) SC cornets, and many of them are much brighter than you would imagine. The small bore and light, thin metals commonly used in them don't produce the timbre most people expect. The "classic" cornet sound everyone wants today may be a fairly modern development. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Bob Stevenson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: Shepherd's Crook vs Long Bell Cornets |
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I have a Bach SC and a Bach LB. (the long bell is a large bore however) and there is a substantial difference in the tone quality.
I like the earlier comment about the shepherd's crook being very mouthpiece dependent. I also find this true.
As for my horns, the LB plays and sounds more like a standard trumpet even with a deep or "V" shaped cup. It is not a bad sound and I actually like it for certain things but it is not a "cornet" timbre in my mind.
The SC still has a typical cornet timbre even with a "C" cup mp although not to the same degree as a 'V" cup.
I use a Bach 1V on both these horns and love the sound.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
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qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Shepherd's Crook vs Long Bell Cornets |
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Bill Dishman wrote: | I like the earlier comment about the shepherd's crook being very mouthpiece dependent. I also find this true. |
I completely agree. That's been my experience as well.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
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lmf Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 2190 Location: Indiana USA
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, All,
Thanks for you comments. I play both a long stem cornet and a shepherd's crook cornet. The sound is different between the two.
I use DW 3,4 and 4B wih the shepherd's crook cornet. I use a cup mouthpiece Bach 7C and 10 1/2 C with the long stem cornet. I've used the DW 4B with it, but the 7C gives it the brighter tone. I believe the long stem cornet originated for cornet players wanting a "more trumpet-like" sound.
The previous thread on TH was helpful, too.
Best wishes,
Lloyd
Last edited by lmf on Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dizzyizzy Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 248 Location: VA
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Agree with above. I regularly play an OLDS A6-ST, (short bell, shepherd's crook) using a Wick 2...and occasionally play it "against" my Bach Strad and the Committee cornets, using the same m/p. Both the Strad & the Martin are almost identical in shape, size, and even tone...the A6 is "deeper", definitely a "cornet" sound...whereas the other two are "brighter", more "trumpety" (is there such a word?). I LOVE the Olds sound.
Dizzizzy _________________ 70 Burbank Benge MLP
69 Olds Recording, 60 Mendez, 79 A6ST, 66 Opera
49 Martin Committee Cornet
46 NY Bach Strad Cornet
OLD Conn 2B, 22B, 38B, 40B, 80A
Bach VBS196 piccolo (Eb/A/G)
Edwards Gen III (C)
Courtois 155-R Flugel
Harrelson 909 Custom |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Diz, thanks for chiming in. You've experimented with a great set up. I love my Wick, but I had no clue how much of the sound I love was the horn and how much the mouthpiece. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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Andy Taylor Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 124 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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The technical differences amount to taper rates, and the taper/cylindrical proportions. A 'proper' SC cornet will have a bell with a larger throat diameter as well. But, over the years there has been a lot of cross fertilization of these parameters. Gives plenty to talk about eh!
Thats the facts. Now for my bit. The biggest difference to tone in all small brass instruments is always going to be the player. Having customers in all corners of the globe I see very clearly different cultures and teaching methods giving very very different results. These can often be pinned down easier than the instrument they are playing. Thats probably a good thread to start, just not from me, some will construe that as a sales angle!
It is interesting tho' how the methods and local cultures result in a certain 'school' of playing. Back to the original point. These 'cultures' or 'schools' react differently to the trumpet/cornet/flugel differences. Whats your views on this bearing in mind this forum is heavily US based.
All the best.
Andy. |
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swingintrpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 Posts: 1889 Location: Orange County
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Would you consider the Boston 3-Star a proper cornet, or would that be more of the American school? I personally find the sound to be very mellow, but not nearly as dark as the Kanstul copper belled cornets or the Getzen Custom. _________________ RJM
Examining the difference between
music and Music. |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Andy Taylor wrote: | Having customers in all corners of the globe I see very clearly different cultures and teaching methods giving very very different results. These can often be pinned down easier than the instrument they are playing. |
Andy, thanks so much for contributing!
"Results" or "different cultures & teaching methods" can often be pinned down eaiser than the instrument?
I've never considered the notion prior. I'm not in a position to survey things the way you are.
Would love to read from you, "well here's what I've seen/heard and here's what I say." _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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Andy Taylor Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2007 Posts: 124 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Richard.
It would be to easy to take sides in a debate like that and as a manufacturer I wouldnt want to state preferences.
But if you go along to an ITG conference and listen to the players who come from overseas (thats as in outside the USA) its not difficult to hear patterns and tonal styles from different 'schools' of playing. Check what the Russian style players do different from you guys, or the different touch you hear from western European player compared to Eastern Europe. How European kids often make a trumpet sound more like a cornet, or (dare I say it) some US players really struggle with the whole cornet thing because the trumpet chops thing is engrained so deep! (oops, am I going to get my balls chopped off for that one?) Its not meant to be nasty at all, merely what I have observed. I've seen kids from the north of England almost in tears because they cant make a trumpet go 'edgy and cutting'. What ever they do it sounds like the mellowest creamy cornet at all volume levels. I hear 14 year old girls in the US that could give Maynard a turn! Yet in most other parts of the world this doesnt happen. There will always be exceptions of course. I'm only talking generalizations here.
I would love to say what impresses me about what I hear and where, but that wouldnt be fair. There are such strong highlights in all these different schoolings that it would be impossible say this is better than that. But it would be nice to learn a bit from each other and put some of it in the melting pot. I think the cornet is a very maligned instrument often trampled underfoot by the trumpets dominence. Would be nice if the cornet was seen as an equal rather than as a novelty as it is in some quarters. There, I've said enough.
All the best.
Andy. |
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Bob Stevenson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well said!... |
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stingaree Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2003 Posts: 138 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Andy about cultural differences influencing cornet approach and tone. I play a SC and a long model cornet. A Wick 3 works great with the SC but not with the long model. And maybe that has to do with the throat of the long model not being large enough. But it responds well to a large 117 backbore and has a round tone but not as mellow or dark as the SC. I gues the British approach to cornet carries over into their trumpet playing and American trumpet playing carries over into out cornet playing. So we should listen to each other and learn, eh? |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Andy, thanks so much! Really appreciate it. Internet is so awful sometimes. Insincerity abounds. Questions really aren't questions but traps.
Thanks so much for answering mine!
Beaucoup grist in your post for several threads. And maybe this thread will continue with the good tenor, will, info, and experience that we're enjoying thus far. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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ctm2aud Regular Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Newport News, Virginia
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to play a Schilke XA1 and a Flip Oakes/Kanstul Wild Thing side by side. GR Chase Sanborn 66 cornet mp, GR Chase Sanborn 66 trumpet mp. The overall sound/tone quality was very similar across the two horns. Yes, the XA1 had a little more of a cornet sound but a non-brass trained ear (my wife) could not tell which one I was playing.
All this to say that yes, I concur that mouthpiece selection has a big effect on the tone quality of a shepherd's crook horn, but the biggest determiner of tone quality is "the man behind the horn."
Dave Taylor
Flip Oakes Celebration
1964 Olds Fullerton flugel
NY Bach Strad cornet (soon to arrive!)'' |
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oldlou Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 997 Location: Michigan, USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: SC vs long bell |
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I can't argue with any of the above, but, I just 'acquired' a vintage1952 Conn 36A Concert Grand cornet, and in testing it all of today, I find that it is a good bit more 'cornetty' than any of my other long bell cornets and at least as sweet sounding as any horn that I own, including my York Airflow cornet, and that is making a bold statement. Of course, mouthpiece selection is changing what I hear on my recordings and I suppose that the sound that I want to make is affecting what I end up hearing. I also tried several of my vintage SC cornets and found that the little Conn out 'cornetted' them all. Needless to say, I am quite pleased with my latest 'acquisition'.
OLDLOU>> |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Have you ever had a chance to compare the 36A to a 38A? |
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