Kill the conductor. Maybe the music will survive.

[walter]

An interesting issue came up in the Fundamentals section. The thread was on sightreading. Someone brought up the issue of whether its more important to get the rhythm right first, or other things (e.g. the correct notes).

Here was my reply:

• In almost all reading situations, rhythm is much more important than pitch. This is especially true when playing with others, because the flow of music is stopped if players are out ot synch with each other. If the pitches are wrong it may sound horrible, but the music keeps on moving. Pitch, dynamics, phrasing, and various nuances can be corrected when the piece is played again; but if you never get through the piece, what's the use in getting bogged down by details.
  
  The worst rehearsals that I've attended have been those in which the conductor stops repeatedly to make relatively minor corrections. Once a player reaches a particular level, (s)he will make her/his own corrections without the conductor pointing out what needs to be worked on. The conductor, IMHO, should spend time in early rehearsal with issues of time and coordination; then as a piece is rehearsed again, other issues come forward.

John U's thread on substitute etiquette is interesting; but I've been more irritated by conductors than by any substitute situation that I can think of. It's pretty easy to tell a sub or a new person to stop whatever they're doing; but conductors waste more rehearsal time and cause more tsuris (grief) than any other person in an orchestra, IMHO.

What's your take on this, and how do you deal with conductors?

[romey1]

I agree Walter.

I'd like to add style to the equation. Style and Rhythm together are more important than note accuracy when sightreading, but it's always nice to just nail everything!

romey

[johntpt]

Walter-

You are SO right!! In my orchestra we frequently work with guest conductors who are less than inspirational, and who many times get in the way of good music making. Just a few weeks ago we were playing the Beethoven 7 with a guy who has no business standing in front of any group! He was the worst conductor I've ever played for. My biggest complaint was that he constantly stopped to "fix" problems, or rather to point out relatively insignificant details that would take care of themselves if the orchestra would be given the chance to play with a conductor who inspires players to play their best and to work together in a positive way. In weeks such as these we bear the rehersals the best we can, and then go on auto pilot during the concerts. In a standard repertoire piece like the Beethoven 7 a good orchestra doesn't need too much from the podium, and the concerts went quite well given the *@!/%&"} up front.

Then there are a few times each year when we do get blessed with someone who lets us do our job, doesn't get in the way, and, if we're really lucky, inspires us to greater things in the concerts. Last week was close to this. We played the Schoenberg Pelleas und Melisande with a fine young Hungarian conductor. Even though the orchestra had never played this difficult piece before, the conductor taught us the piece in a clear way without wasting much time and effort. The concerts went well and the audiences really liked it!

Our Music Director is very demanding and sometimes can be tempermental, but he constantly gets the best from us and always gives that "edge of your seat" feeling at concerts. The adrenaline is always flowing when he's around. With him our concerts are never boring and often are really wonderful. He's here for 3 weeks right now, Scheherazade this week, Saint-Saens Organ the next, followed by Zarathustra. After that the Mahler 5 with a guest will seem like a week off!

JU

[caritas]

Here I am, a conductor, and one who believes above all in caritas plus music, and yet I find myself agreeing with many sentiments expressed above. Conductors can do more to wreck an orchestral experience than anyone, it seems. We should walk in fear of being dishonorable to the musical profession. We should also heed several wise people who said: "The conductor's first task is to inspire the musicians." (Brock McElheran) "Don't ever be the kind of conductor the musicians need to ignore." (not sure who gets credit for this one) "Just shut up and drive (conduct)" (William Vacchiano, reported to me thirdhand) "It's not about you, it's about the music." (Herbert Blomstedt)

[RGale]

Walter, you just said something I have thought many times. Thank you for a very fine post. I've worked for some good ones, and some mediocre, and some awful conductors who IMO shouldn't be trusted with a chia pet. I worked with one bargain basement Fritz Reiner who really thinks he's great and is destroying an orchestra. Why the board doesn't fire him is unimaginable to me. Oh well, not my problem anymore- thank God.I just pity the poor schlubs who have to work with this old blister.

[walter]

I'm very pleased that this topic struck a chord (ouch!)

I also wanted to agree with some of the writers who mentioned how wonderful playing under the direction of a good conductor can be. Two conductors came to mind right away, and they are conductors who most of you don't know of, but hopefully one day you will. I'm mentioning these 2 people because I think that they embody what I want to experience when working with a conductor.

The conductor who I've experienced the most inspiring direction from in the past few years is Andre Smith. He was Assistant Conductor with the Philadelphia Orchestra until a year or two ago. What I love most about his conducting were these things:

• He is always totally respectful of the musicians in the orchestra and how he uses their time during rehearsals.
  
• He not only seems to be aware of what's going on as the music is being played (you'd think that this would be par for the course, but many conductors seem disoriented to what is happening all around them), but he is able to selectively choose what is most important to work on at a particular time.
  
• He always seems to have an idea of how he wants a piece to sound. This reflects his preparation to bring a piece before the orchestra and his familiarity with the nuances of the piece. In other words, he seems to have in mind both the overall structure of a piece and the details that make each moment move from what was to what will be.
  
• He knows how to move dozens of people in the direction that he wants to move.
  
• I am almost always feel that I know a piece better after having played it under his direction, even if I've played the piece 100 times before.
  
• I am often moved by what we're playing, and I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to play great music well.

The other conductor who came to my mind right away (probably because we just worked on the Prokofiev 5th Symphony two days ago) was Jeri Lynn Johnson, who currently is the Assistant Conductor with the Philadelphia Chamber Symphony. Ms. Johnson brings enthusiasm and skill to the podium. Her demeanor never fails to draw and keep the attention of the players. But enthusiasm is not enough by itself: she knows where she's going and how to get there. The attractive Ms. Johnson has the body of a dancer, and she expresses the choreography of a piece of music by drawing the musicians into the dance with just the right motions ... and what she does in this way isn't mere histrionics. Her movements are economic and clear, making odd meters changes and rhythms at high speeds easy to follow. Most of all, she's fun to play with.

An interesting thing is that both of these wonderful conductors have 2 things in common. First they have both achieved winning assistantship positions with very fine orchestras. Second, they are both African-American. Orchestral music needs inspired and inspiring conductors such as these two. I am absolutely not supportive of affirmative action; but I fear that the orchestral world has a dearth of talented black musicians. Ms Johnson has the added stigma of her gender. Just how many black conductors do you know of or have you played with? How many women conductors do you know of or have you played with?

I don't mean for this thread to become a polemic on race, gender, or what must be done to save orchestral music from increasingly losing audiences ... so please create separate threads for those issues.

My purpose for the thread is to discuss some of the concerns we all have about good and bad conducting. I think that open discussions raise our level of awareness, bringing topics such as this into more frequent consideration than they might be otherwise. As people think more about these things, maybe these ideas will change conducting for the better.

One last nugget to throw in: authoritarian conductors should be tied to a giant baton and burned alive. They'll receive cheers unlike they've ever heard before.

[johntpt]

"To an expert orchestra or other ensemble, a conductor's time beating is largely an irrelevance. Good players rarely pay close attention to that aspect of the conductor's work. Setting tempi, handling changes of tempi and the use of gesture to indicate feeling and the progress of the music, these are the only occasional signs that expert players need in order to supplement their listening. The good conductor creates a stimulating framework for the players' listening and playing."

Howard Snell, "The Trumpet", page 19, (chapter on Listening)