Fixing Bad Time

stukvalve · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:15 pm Post subject:

Hey guys, I just recorded myself playing a bunch of excerpts recently, and I listened closely to my time. It wasn't happening!

Is there any way that I can fix my internal time?
I am using a metronome regularly, can anyone reccomend excersises to do? With or without a metronome? I own a DB88 ....
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No BS · Veteran Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 141

Good question...Practice with the Dr. Beat giving the upbeat. You will find this very challenging at first but it can be done. You may also have it just give the first downbeat in a measure. It's all about learning to subdivide...a tough thing! I think the key is to think "outside the box" when you practice excerpts. It's real easy to sit in a room and play pictures over and over. Try to really change things up. You are already taping yourself-this is the #1 improvement tool...good luck!

caritas · Regular Member Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 58

I agree with No BS. Also, while a metronome helps, it only gets you so far. Somehow you have to internalize the metronome--somebody I know referred to this internal sense of time as a "clock". Once you have it, you almost never lose it, and it rarely fails you. Time, I think, is all about context: your beat needs to be steady in relation to what's going on around you (which is why sitting in a room playing pictures over and over gets you no "clock": there's no context). The experience of playing in an orchestra helps: you can lock on to the conductor (who, if any good, will coordinate time well for the various contexts, helping out with steady upbeats, preps for entrances, etc) and you can lock on to your section. Sometimes there's trouble: a wavering within the section, say. That's when your clock, the principal's, or another section can be an anchor. Some great principal tpts move in time, slightly, and you can watch them out of the corner of your eye. Most decent conductors won't object if you move a little yourself, to get in to the time framework. I think moving in time helps develop your internal clock more than almost anything else.
There's a great book about how subdivisions work in context to help phrasing, etc.--I think it's called Rhythm and Meter in Music, and it's by two guys--if I unearth it, I'll come back and post the title.

birdland98 · Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject:

A great way to help internalize your rhythm is to record (with a metronome) either the accompaniments and/or section trumpet parts to excerpts and play along with those. It really works well on a piece like Magnificat where 1st trumpet plays several measures alone in several spots before 2nd/3rd join in. If you can come in perfectly with the other trumpets, you know your rhythm is good. Other excerpts that I'm working on similar ideas with are Pines of Rome, Concerto for Orchestra, and any of the Bach picc pieces.
-Alex

*** This is also a great "eye-opener" for intonation, especially on the piccolo

caritas · Regular Member Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 58

The book I mentioned is really titled "The Rhythmic Structure of Music" and it's by G. Cooper and LB Meyer. Pub. 1963 by UChicago. Contains musical examples and easy-to-understand analyses which explain how time works; would be interesting to those who like an analytic rather than intuitive approach. I like both, and in the interests of fair disclosure, have to say that I acquired my sense of time intuitively at first.

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Good advice above. Also, don't beat yourself up to much if it's "not happening".
Listen carefully to your recordings of yourself to determine what you're doing that's different from what you want. Chances are the answers will be pretty clear if you don't let yourself get frustrated.

Bob

[ This Message was edited by: robert_white on 2003-06-25 14:56 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject:

The book Caritas mentioned is available from http://www.barnesandnoble.com for $15 plus shipping.

TopGun · Veteran Member Joined: 17 Mar 2003 Posts: 456

All great points and I would like to add another if I may. You might want to keep in mind exactly what is bad about your time on each excerpt. Figgure out how you need to improve your time on each one and take note of any trends. Keep the problem simple and don't let it overwelm you. When you record them play one at a time. Then play back phrase by phrase to begin with. Don't try to fix the list in one run. It will also be helpfull to run the list at the beginning of each sesson but after doing so break it down into very small sections as described above.

TopGun

Clarion Wind · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 141

Yes, I have decent time if I tap a foot. However, without it I get in trouble. It is unfortunate, I think that eventually I will be able to develop good time without the foot tap, as right now I think the bad time without it is simply due to my body missing the physical motion rather than actually not being able to keep internal time. However, the last time I took a lesson on my excerpts, my teacher said "time to get rid of that, it is unprofessional and can get you out of the finals of an orch audition as fast as missing a passage." So, I guess I am sorta in your boat.

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:06 am Post subject:

No BS had some good advice. Try setting the metronome to ONLY give you the downbeat (beat 1) and then try and stay with it. Tapping your foot to get the other beats.
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Jarrett Ellis · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649

What helps me alot with time... AND tuning is playing with recordings... transcriptions... orchestra..... shorty rogers... tower of power... anything that grooves.
-J
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radial · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject:

I'm not a professional player by any stretch and don't have any idea where you are in your quest, but I find that there are finger combinations and some intervals that throw my rhythm off because I never took the time to get the transition smooth. I've been doing a lot of Clark and Arban fingering and wide intervals very slowly with a metronome while slamming my fingers down to get things as even as possible.
I have also been doing mouthpiece practice of very simple music so that I can concentrate on things other than getting the notes out and tonguing.

Don't know if this has any relevance to what you're going through, but thought I'd throw it in as it is a completely different direction than others seem to pointing.